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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sejs" data-source="post: 950484" data-attributes="member: 4910">Rel has way better self control than I do.  Wooo~ deconstruction ahoy!  Take this in stride, Kevmann - if you get insulted, assume I meant it the other way.  What if they're unaware of the law?  What about the severity of the law?  Does a paladin who litters lose all his abilities then and there? (Bless me father, for I have sinned. It's been 15 minutes since my last confession.. I littered.  Sorry.  Can I have an Atone so I can smite evil again please?)  What if the law makes no sense?  (No red hats on tuesdays)  What about areas where some laws serve to protect the wicked, but are on their own, solid laws?  (You may not strike a priestess for any reason.. in a drow city.  Attack a priestess of Lloth.. lose your paladinhood?) There are times when lying can be noble.  Does this dress make me look fat? No. (*BAM*).  Are there any revoutionaries against Dreal Lord Tyranton in there?  No (*BAM*)  What do you think of my plan to erect a giant thousand-foot tall statue of myself in the town square?  I think it's ...interesting, sire (*BAM*)  Gotcha, so instead of smiting evil, a paladin has to issue a court order to the various serial rapists, mass murderers, soul-selling diabolists, zelot cultists of slaughter-gods, drow, chromatic dragons, kuo-toa, and what not.  Then he has to hope they show up for their fair and balanced trial.  I can think of several crimes that are worthy of execution; not just murder. Wait.. guile and trickery are tools of evil?  Being smarter than the other guy means you evil??  I missed the boat, somewhere.  There was a boat and I wasn't on the boat.  Likewise, a paladin can't fight monks or spellcasters, then, yes?  No weapons.. or is it they're not supposed to attack those that can't defend themselves?  Not attacking the defenseless I agree with.  But not the no-weapon thing.  I likewise don't agree witht he no-stealth thing.  So if a paladin is trying to slip past a blockade ..er.. rather a Blockade of Evil, and he would otherwise get by unnoticed, does he have to step out, announce himself and get his fight on with the garrison present?  The courtesy to the opposite sex and lords bit could get -really- tricky, too.  I'd say it's a nice -guideline- but shouldn't be a hard and fast -requirement-. Boy, I sure hope paladins come equipped with Phlacrities of Faithfulness then.  Particularly if they thing they're doing something good, and were in actuality tricked, and the eventual results of their actions would be bad.  Bam.. no abilities.  That'll teach you to trust people, you darn (ex)Paladin. quick heads up - you're looking for sow - to spread or seed.  A soe is a cask.  Probably should add 'willingly or wittingly' on there.  If some bad guy with undetectable alignment running 24/7 joins the party and does nothing evil while there.. paladin shouldn't lose their abilities.  Even then it could easily lead to some real rock and a hard place situations where there is no real alternative than by associating with a lesser evil to take out a greater one.  Personally, I wouldn't think it would be right to punish a paladin if the DM engineered them to be caught in a Catch-22.  Uh, if they're evil such that they have an evil alignment.. their innocence can be easily brought into question.  But again, I agree with the Don't Smite The Helpless thing.  Actually....  working in the interest of the greater good (do the most good for the most people) is a throughly lawful concept.  Whereas the chaotic alignments are concerned primarily with the individual.   But anyway, yeah.  Again - if the DM doesn't get off by sticking you in Catch-22s, shouldn't be much of a problem.  Just don't do around making oaths lightly.  I disagree with the 'your no better than the evil you wish to suppress' line, though.  You're inherrantly better, because the evil wouldn't be looking to help people at all in the first place.</blockquote>

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