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Paladins in 5e (different from Battle Clerics and Chivalrous Fighters)
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<blockquote data-quote="Grydan" data-source="post: 5828765" data-attributes="member: 79401"><p>WARNING: Spoilers ahead for <em>Three Hearts and Three Lions</em>, an entertaining fantasy story by Poul Anderson that Gary Gygax listed as one of the inspirations for D&D</p><p></p><p></p><p>Holger Carlsen was a champion of Law, yes. Good is never mentioned in the story, it's a purely Law/Chaos divide. He only sides with Law after Chaos tries to trick him into removing himself from the conflict altogether (in a completely non-lethal and probably thoroughly enjoyable way). His abilities are clearly not contingent on his commitment to Law, or Good, or Lawful Good.</p><p></p><p>In fact, his only abilities above and beyond other mortal men are specifically called out as gifts from benevolent faeries while he was still in the cradle. Not a result of some divine intervention, or acquired through faith in any gods or God. As such, they are not contingent on any allegiance or faith to any creed, code, alignment, god or God.</p><p></p><p>He was an agnostic, who hadn't been to church in years. So he certainly wasn't a zealot of his faith.</p><p></p><p>He was asked to lay on hands once in the story, but he doesn't believe it had an actual impact (the recipient of the act does, but lives in a world without the germ theory of disease). When an ally is grievously injured, neither he nor any of his allies make any suggestion that laying on hands would do anything at all, so it's not attempted. </p><p></p><p>He engages in various behaviours that would conflict with many people's views of the pious and honour-bound warrior of the faith. </p><p></p><p>He smokes, drinks, and tells dirty jokes and sings dirty songs. He beds the first faerie woman who expresses interest, and is later disappointed that his opportunity to escape a captor arises before he can partake of her charms. He fondles a sleeping maiden, putting his hand in her tunic (she probably wouldn't have minded, but he certainly didn't act in chivalrous or honourable manner by just going ahead and doing it).</p><p></p><p>He is not fearless. He is certainly courageous, but is not immune to fear.</p><p></p><p>He doesn't concern himself with honour. Like, at all. He disguises himself and lies to the face of someone who is searching for him, simply because he <em>might </em>be an enemy. He has no issue with using trickery to escape a captor, or to scare off foes instead of fighting them, or allowing an ally to manipulate someone into providing them services for free.</p><p></p><p>He has no issue with stealing, "His restless life had made him less painstakingly law-abiding than most of his countrymen". He takes the equipment he finds at the beginning of the story while under the belief it belongs to someone else, and has no particular hesitation about doing so. He steals the Faerie lord's dagger (admittedly, when someone tries to kill you, I don't think it's terribly wrong to stop respecting their property rights to some extent). </p><p></p><p>So he's on the side of Law, but not terrifically lawful, and not terribly pious. Doesn't follow a code. Is not imbued with divine powers. Is not concerned with honour. Isn't constrained by alignment, code, or creed. Has no proven healing abilities, spells, or spell-like abilities.</p><p></p><p>He's an unparalleled combatant, in and out of armour. He never wears plate.</p><p></p><p>So yeah, by some people's rules for what a paladin must be, he just doesn't qualify.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Grydan, post: 5828765, member: 79401"] WARNING: Spoilers ahead for [I]Three Hearts and Three Lions[/I], an entertaining fantasy story by Poul Anderson that Gary Gygax listed as one of the inspirations for D&D Holger Carlsen was a champion of Law, yes. Good is never mentioned in the story, it's a purely Law/Chaos divide. He only sides with Law after Chaos tries to trick him into removing himself from the conflict altogether (in a completely non-lethal and probably thoroughly enjoyable way). His abilities are clearly not contingent on his commitment to Law, or Good, or Lawful Good. In fact, his only abilities above and beyond other mortal men are specifically called out as gifts from benevolent faeries while he was still in the cradle. Not a result of some divine intervention, or acquired through faith in any gods or God. As such, they are not contingent on any allegiance or faith to any creed, code, alignment, god or God. He was an agnostic, who hadn't been to church in years. So he certainly wasn't a zealot of his faith. He was asked to lay on hands once in the story, but he doesn't believe it had an actual impact (the recipient of the act does, but lives in a world without the germ theory of disease). When an ally is grievously injured, neither he nor any of his allies make any suggestion that laying on hands would do anything at all, so it's not attempted. He engages in various behaviours that would conflict with many people's views of the pious and honour-bound warrior of the faith. He smokes, drinks, and tells dirty jokes and sings dirty songs. He beds the first faerie woman who expresses interest, and is later disappointed that his opportunity to escape a captor arises before he can partake of her charms. He fondles a sleeping maiden, putting his hand in her tunic (she probably wouldn't have minded, but he certainly didn't act in chivalrous or honourable manner by just going ahead and doing it). He is not fearless. He is certainly courageous, but is not immune to fear. He doesn't concern himself with honour. Like, at all. He disguises himself and lies to the face of someone who is searching for him, simply because he [I]might [/I]be an enemy. He has no issue with using trickery to escape a captor, or to scare off foes instead of fighting them, or allowing an ally to manipulate someone into providing them services for free. He has no issue with stealing, "His restless life had made him less painstakingly law-abiding than most of his countrymen". He takes the equipment he finds at the beginning of the story while under the belief it belongs to someone else, and has no particular hesitation about doing so. He steals the Faerie lord's dagger (admittedly, when someone tries to kill you, I don't think it's terribly wrong to stop respecting their property rights to some extent). So he's on the side of Law, but not terrifically lawful, and not terribly pious. Doesn't follow a code. Is not imbued with divine powers. Is not concerned with honour. Isn't constrained by alignment, code, or creed. Has no proven healing abilities, spells, or spell-like abilities. He's an unparalleled combatant, in and out of armour. He never wears plate. So yeah, by some people's rules for what a paladin must be, he just doesn't qualify. [/QUOTE]
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