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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Doctor Proctor" data-source="post: 4695405" data-attributes="member: 78547">That's a lot of assumptions.  In the case of my party, I'm +2 ahead of the Paladin for hitting OA's (+2 weapon, FWT, 12 WIS).  That's something, but not unmissable.  The Paladin can still hurt someone bad with his OA's, as he's doing them with a Greataxe.  Yes, the enemy's movement won't be stopped, but he's taking a risk of giving the Paladin free damage. And???  You seem to be misunderstanding the example.  If he Paladin DC's someone they have to "engage" the target (attack or end turn adjacent).  After the Pally's turn is over, if the enemy decides to move away from the Paladin to attack another party the DC is still in effect because the engaged the target before his turn ended.  So, if he does a regular move action, he's taking a 50% chance to eat an OA, a -2 to attack the other party member and guaranteed damage from DC if he does so.  The next round, since the Paladin engaged before the end of his turn, the Paladin can DC a new target.  The Pally loses nothing in this exchange, whereas the enemy takes guaranteed damage, has a 10% lower chance to hit the other PC and takes a 50% chance of eating an OA.  That's being a good Defender.  You're not understanding the example.  I was saying that if the enemy is able to get away from the Fighter, meaning he avoided the OA, the Fighter cannot use his Combat Challenge at range.  Compare this to the Pally where it's easier to get away, but the DC damage (the CC equivalent) is guaranteed.  So while it's easier to escape the Pally, you can't escape his damage.  That's the difference between the two. You can't OA on a shift, only CC.  Also, CC attacks dont stop movement.  Notice, I said the "shift+charge" strategy.  You shift away from the Fighter, which provokes a CC attack (which is not modified by the Combat Superiority feature) and then charge the other PC with your Standard.  This avoids the need to worry about having your movement stopped, provided the shift allows a clear line of attack that won't provoke, but forces the enemy to use a charge rather than a more damaging ability.Again, you're not understanding the point.  The Paladin only needs to engage the target or end his turn adjacent to keep DC active for that round.  If the enemy moves away after the Paladin ends his turn, DC is still active until the end of the Pally's next turn.Assuming the above example where the enemy moves away from the Pally and goes to attack an ally, this means that DC will fire off and auto-damage the target.  On the Pally's turn he has two options:  1) Chase down the target and re-engage/end his turn adjacent to maintain DC.  2) Spend a minor action to DC a new target and then either engage that target or end his turn adjacent to the target.So, it's only if the Pally wants to keep challenging the same target round after round that he needs to chase them.  Similarly, the Fighter's mark only lasts for until the end of his next turn.  Barring powers like Lasting Threat, the Fighter would also have to keep chasing a target around the map if he wished to keep marking him round after round. But your disagreement also seems to be based off of some invalid assumptions.How is the Fighter any different?  He gets one CC attack per round, which means his potential attack is a one-off, and it's not even guaranteed to hit.  Additionally, in the example of someone doing a shift+charge at an ally in the back row the Fighter must make the same decision as the Pally as to whether he should move to re-engage the target, or pick someone else to attack and mark.  They're no different in this respect.As for you who you'd want to guard a door, yes, a Fighter would probably be better at that.  If you think Defenders are only good for guarding doors, then I guess that's the best option.  However, most people seem to think that they're good for other things besides that...and the Pally has a lot of extra tricks that the Fighter doesn't.  Even level 1 attack powers like Paladin's Judgement add a lot to a party, whereas the Fighter's attack powers are usually more offensive in nature and cause effects on the enemies.  Granted, they get some nice Utilities for the Fighter that can help out other party members, but many require a shield...and they're Utility powers, as opposed to At-Will, Encounter, Daily AND Utility powers (as is the case with the Pally).</blockquote>

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