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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5919538" data-attributes="member: 87792">Lemony Paladin.  I'm with the side that says that the code is what matters, not the God.  And that you can divorce them from Clerics if you take the Paladins being an embodiment of virtue rather than of divinity.The Warpriest says "My God, aid me in doing your works."  By contrast the Paladin says "This is who I am.  And while I still have breath in my body here I stand.  I can do no other."  Their very adherence to their dream empowers them to stand and keep fighting where another would have lain down their life. And dreams differ.  The benefits of a Paladin of Compassion aren't the same as a Paladin of Valour. This also dictates the Blackguard.  Ordinary people just don't have the focus to become a Blackguard.  A Blackguard is a Paladin with a broken dream.  When you choose your Paladin's Virtue you also choose their vice.  Once in a lifetime they may fall, once they may redeem themselves (no revolving doors please).  If they fall a second time, that is it - but any fall and/or redemption is player initiated.   Also with DM agreement as not all campaigns will be suitable, a player is allowed to spend the first adventure as a Blackguard and then become a Paladin without this counting against the one redemption limit ("They killed my sister - they will die" being an origin for "I'm not letting anyone else's sister be killed") Blackguards get different bonusses than Paladins. Blackguard vices include:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wrath ("The world is base and bad and vile.  And I will purify it.")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vengeance ("How dare you destroy that which I love?  I will pursue you to the end of the earth." (depressingly common for defeated Paladins of Valour))</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Greed ("I have spent myself on the world/done mighty deeds.  Now It.  Owes.  Me.  I deserve this.")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lust ("The dream is a lie.  There is neither good nor evil.  Merely what you can take and hold.")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pride ("I have defeated the legions sent before me.  And as undefeated we can Storm The Gates Of Hell!/Walk into the Dark Lord's Castle/Whatever")</li> </ul>Yes, I did filch from the Seven Deadly Sins for the vices.  There are fewer because no matter how I try I can't work out how to make e.g. Sloth into a compelling vice for an adventurer.  But Paladins and Blackguards both share one core thing.  They are all determinators, able by strength of will and conviction to throw off things that would stop an ordinary man. Note: I'd like credit if anyone wants to take my ideas.  But if that's impossible, feel free to steal them just as I built on the back of the 4e paladin...  Indeed.  Or you just dump Lawful Good and draw up the codes for your virtues.  And now I have the idea of Indiana Jones as a Paladin of Restoration ("It belongs in a museum!"), alongside the Ninja Librarians of Ioun who would in 4e have been Avengers.  I see no problem here.  Paladins of dark gods make compelling adversaries.</blockquote>

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