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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sagiro" data-source="post: 4266925" data-attributes="member: 726">Well, a few things:1. I wasn't attempting to create an all-or-nothing dichotomy between realism and cinema.  But while they're obviously not a zero-sum game, there is often an unavoidable trade-off between the two.  I suppose you could make a game that was both supremely realistic and extremely cinematic, if you were willing to bite off a lot of rules complexity as well.  (Of course, if you have a fantasy system that is realistic, cinematic AND simple, I invite you write it and market it -- I'll be first in line to buy!   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )2. I'm not trying to tell anyone they're "wrong" for playing D&D even if they prefer realism to cinema.  But if someone finds systems like Minions troubling because it strains their sense of believability, it wouldn't surprise me if they're annoyed all the time while playing D&D, because it's filled with abstractions and unrealistic notions that streamline the experience and leave more time for cinema and storytelling.  el-Remmen, you say "I also take exception to being told that if you want something different maybe you should look for a game other than D&D."  Think about what you just, literally, wrote.  Rephrased, you said:  "If I want something different, I don't want to be told I should look for something different."  Now, I'm guessing that in your case, there are enough things you like about D&D that you're willing to overlook or house-rule the things you don't like.  Heck, that probably describes 95% of the people on this board, myself included.  Nothing wrong with that!  And I'm not suggesting that someone abandon D&D just because they don't like minions -- that's crazy talk.  But the sense I get from KarinsDad, from this post and from others, is that he has enough "realism" issues with 4e that he may have more fun trying a system that values realism more highly than does D&D.  I'm not ascribing any value judgments, believe me.    3. I agree fully with el-Remmen that the Minion system is easily modularized.  Your 4e game won't suffer noticably if you never use minions, or if you only use minions that look or feel like minions to you.  I find myself in agreement with Cadfan and some others -- some minions would strain both the realism AND the cinematic nature of a scene to the breaking point.  And, I see the MM doesn't seem to have any of those -- there are no Ancient Red Dragon Minions, or Mammoths Minions, etc.   For me, "paper minions," as a system, has a fun and important place in D&D, and railing against the system because you can't understand how minions survive in the wild while fighting each other is missing the point entirely.</blockquote>

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