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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lizard" data-source="post: 4266951" data-attributes="member: 1054">How about ogres, then? They, too, are large, bulky, and shouldn't die when a human stabs them with a sword, but there are ogre minions in the MM.Cyclops? Giant 1-eyed critter with huge-ass club. Cyclops minions are in the MM.Source: Friend who DL'ed the books. Who will now be being very snide to me since I'd been lecturing him about it. See what you made me do?No reason why there can't be magic stabbable mammoths, either, esp since they're not that much more impressive than ogres or cyclops. Minionism isn't about toughness, it's about plot role. A minion is anything the DM wants the PCs to kill in large numbers. It's up to the DM to make it narratively plausible, at least as far his players' tolerances are concerned.Minions aren't "lower level" versions of monsters. In many cases, they're the same, or higher, level than non-minion versions.What, exactly, do you have against the poor mammoth minion, anyway? Why does it bug you so much?Uhm....huh?Why do you interpret everything I write as some sort of attack on 4e?Of course I don't want that. I'm pointing out the fundamental illogic in your mammoth minion hatred.For some reason, you seem to have decided that the minion rules are great, as long as the minions fit your, personal, subjective, definition of "minionable". Whenever anyone brings up the possibilities of minions you, personally, don't find "believable" (whatever that means in this context) you go off on a wild raving tangent about how, maybe, legion devils (21st level monsters) are trivial to kill, but mammoths (12th level at MOST) MUST NEVER BE MINIONS! NEVER! EVER! The skies shall be AS BLOOD before that can occur!So explain to me why it makes sense to one-shot-kill one type of ogre and not another. They're both the same size. They're both about as hard to hit. They're both about as good at dealing damage. One is statted as a minion so you can plow through hordes of them, one isn't. It's pure narrative convention, and I don't see why you, of all people, are suddenly getting all simulationist and insisting the only things which can be minions are those which the PCs could "kill anyway", and it's just a bookkeeping simplification. It isn't. It's 100% DM narrative fiat, decreeing:"For this fight, you WILL cleave your way through a hundred dragons, because you're JUST THAT UBER. Next fight, one single dragon, visually identical to the 100 you just killed, will wipe the floor with you, because that one's the Boss Monster."Why is it a "mistake"? Vorpal bunnies have been a part of D&D lore ever since a certain movie...My recent campaign had an awakened wolf who had 10 ranger levels. No one found that odd.</blockquote>

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