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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Blackeagle" data-source="post: 4268078" data-attributes="member: 41120">Tell that to all the experienced players who swore the monk was overpowered when 3e first came out.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Oh, everybody will certainly want some anti-minion ability, but unless all your DM ever throws at you are minions, there will be a need for single target damage abilities too.  In fact, given how huge a bag of hit points brutes, elites, and solos have I wouldn't be surprised if those end up influencing builds a lot more than minions.  In the end, I think the trick of character design in 4e is not going to be turning your character into a minion killing machine, or a single target damage monster, it's going to be building a character that works well against a wide variety of threats and with abilities that synergize with the other members of your party.Actually, wouldn't the house rule presented just encourage the use of many of these abilities?  Cleave wouldn't autokill one of your upgraded minions, but it would still knock a hit off them, so it's better than the other single-target attacks you mentioned.  Same with low damage AoE spells.  Requiring two hits doesn't change the fact that the amount of damage you do doesn't matter.You could rule that the damage from stuff like cleave doesn't knock a hit off a minion, of course, but that just creates the opposite incentive, making cleave a lot less useful than Reaping Strike.</blockquote>

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