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<blockquote data-quote="Benimoto" data-source="post: 4269096" data-attributes="member: 40093">I'm not a big fan.&nbsp; Minions work inconsistently with the way HP works in general, but it works when they only take one hit.&nbsp; When they take multiple hits, you're setting up an entire system parallel but counter to HP.&nbsp; Minions already destabilize the hit point concept and letting them take more than one hit where hit points aren't tracked is a step too far in my book.I think if you want a monster to take more than one hit, then using a real monster is the answer.&nbsp; As others have mentioned, a monster 4 levels lower than the party is worth the same XP as 2 minions, and is usually just as dangerous.&nbsp; If there's a place in the system for a &quot;tough minion&quot;, it's very narrow.And I agree with the others saying that it's difficult to see how minions work on paper, having only the experiences of previous D&amp;D versions to guide you.&nbsp; No plan survives contact with the enemy, and I'm guessing that most &quot;metagaming&quot; strategies against minions will fare similarly.&nbsp; In many of the encounters in Keep on the Shadowfell, the minions quickly engaged and nearly overwhelmed the party in the first few rounds of battle, until the party was able to cut back on their numbers.&nbsp; Saving powers was not a winning strategy.With the revised rules for charging in 4e as well as the looser movement costs, monsters can easily reach and attack the PCs as soon as they can act.&nbsp; In other words, there's no &quot;size-up round&quot;.&nbsp; Instead, some of the PCs are nearly always fighting and being hurt before they even get an action.To put it another way, in previous editions, PCs typically fought enemies only in numbers less than or equal to their own.&nbsp; The action economy meant that as soon as the PCs dropped a monster or two, they gained control of the encounter unless they were being disabled at equal rates.&nbsp; With minions, the equation changes.&nbsp; Instead, PCs often fight enemy forces over twice their size in number.&nbsp; The story value of minions is obvious, but the mechanical value to the so-called action economy is only slightly less so.&nbsp; Anything that means using less minions undermines their entire reason for existing in the first place.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Benimoto, post: 4269096, member: 40093"] I'm not a big fan. Minions work inconsistently with the way HP works in general, but it works when they only take one hit. When they take multiple hits, you're setting up an entire system parallel but counter to HP. Minions already destabilize the hit point concept and letting them take more than one hit where hit points aren't tracked is a step too far in my book. I think if you want a monster to take more than one hit, then using a real monster is the answer. As others have mentioned, a monster 4 levels lower than the party is worth the same XP as 2 minions, and is usually just as dangerous. If there's a place in the system for a "tough minion", it's very narrow. And I agree with the others saying that it's difficult to see how minions work on paper, having only the experiences of previous D&D versions to guide you. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and I'm guessing that most "metagaming" strategies against minions will fare similarly. In many of the encounters in Keep on the Shadowfell, the minions quickly engaged and nearly overwhelmed the party in the first few rounds of battle, until the party was able to cut back on their numbers. Saving powers was not a winning strategy. With the revised rules for charging in 4e as well as the looser movement costs, monsters can easily reach and attack the PCs as soon as they can act. In other words, there's no "size-up round". Instead, some of the PCs are nearly always fighting and being hurt before they even get an action. To put it another way, in previous editions, PCs typically fought enemies only in numbers less than or equal to their own. The action economy meant that as soon as the PCs dropped a monster or two, they gained control of the encounter unless they were being disabled at equal rates. With minions, the equation changes. Instead, PCs often fight enemy forces over twice their size in number. The story value of minions is obvious, but the mechanical value to the so-called action economy is only slightly less so. Anything that means using less minions undermines their entire reason for existing in the first place. [/QUOTE]

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