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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4269245" data-attributes="member: 2011">In our games, the PCs were outnumbered by 2 to 1 in at least 25% of all battles (as DM, I must like big battles because I do it quite often, I guess I like the fact that it appears more threatening than it might actually be and it adds an element of serious risk and challenge).The reason that the PCs often survived is: a) many of the opponents were not spell casters in those situations (just like 4E minions with few or no special powers), b) the PCs had multiple spellcasters to heal, do crowd control, to damage multiple enemies with one attack, etc. (just like 4E), c) the mook types did not have as many magical items to assist (just like 4E), and d) the mook types were often 1 or 2 levels lower than the PCs (the slightly lower levels of 3E was replaced with 1 hit point paper targets in 4E).We've had battles with as many as 25 or 30 opponents (I think our max was 42 or some such, but such large battles tend to come in waves over several rounds) against 5 or 6 PCs in 3E. We've often had battles where the battle spilled into a different area with more enemies or where nearby enemies were alerted and came to investigate.All of this worked in 3E. The advantage of the minion rules in 4E is not so much that it allows large battles. Being outnumbered happened in many 3E combats. The advantage of the minion rules is that it's less bookkeeping for the DM and allows for more &quot;same level&quot; opponents. The offense of the mooks increased slightly, but the defense (i.e. hit points, the last bastion of defense in damaging combat) went right out the door.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 4269245, member: 2011"] In our games, the PCs were outnumbered by 2 to 1 in at least 25% of all battles (as DM, I must like big battles because I do it quite often, I guess I like the fact that it appears more threatening than it might actually be and it adds an element of serious risk and challenge). The reason that the PCs often survived is: a) many of the opponents were not spell casters in those situations (just like 4E minions with few or no special powers), b) the PCs had multiple spellcasters to heal, do crowd control, to damage multiple enemies with one attack, etc. (just like 4E), c) the mook types did not have as many magical items to assist (just like 4E), and d) the mook types were often 1 or 2 levels lower than the PCs (the slightly lower levels of 3E was replaced with 1 hit point paper targets in 4E). We've had battles with as many as 25 or 30 opponents (I think our max was 42 or some such, but such large battles tend to come in waves over several rounds) against 5 or 6 PCs in 3E. We've often had battles where the battle spilled into a different area with more enemies or where nearby enemies were alerted and came to investigate. All of this worked in 3E. The advantage of the minion rules in 4E is not so much that it allows large battles. Being outnumbered happened in many 3E combats. The advantage of the minion rules is that it's less bookkeeping for the DM and allows for more "same level" opponents. The offense of the mooks increased slightly, but the defense (i.e. hit points, the last bastion of defense in damaging combat) went right out the door. [/QUOTE]

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