Paragons of neutral good

[nevin]

N awful lot of generic actions that could be justified by multipe alignments being used to justify them. Remember in Alignment the justification for the action by someones moral code and in thier own thoughts is what defines whether its good or not. The viking mage sinking an entire fleet of invaders to protect his homeland could literally be any Alignment and I could write mental justification for them all. The action or outcome does not demonstrate alignment on any measurable level in most cases. the rational for why it occurs determine the alignment.

IE sank the fleet because the kingdom was weak and the king and the government needed to be saved for the good of the people could be, NG, LG,CG,LE,LN, (protecting your kingdom, family etc) or even N, NE,CE, (protecting your power base or our own stuff (LE bleeds over here), or CN because he felt like it.

Note all of the alignments do the same thing but I gaurrantee almos every one in the kingdom will tag them as good in someway. Your personal view of someone elses actions in. No way defines the internal moral code that drove the action or in any way reveal the moral code or alignment.

 

[nevin]

Pippi is as close as a paragon of Chaotic Good as I can think of. Her whole deal is telling authority figures to eff the eff off, while at the same time being very kind and generous to the people around her and protecting people from bullies (regardless of whether those bullies have the force of law behind them or not).

CN could do the same thing because they feel sorry for the downtrodden and want to piss off he bullies and screw with them.

If the authority figures are misusing the Law the LG could be justified. I could go on with all the good, N, and LE oe NE. internal reasoning and moral code is the defining thing that determines the Alignment, not the external action.

 

[Deset Gled]

CN could do the same thing because they feel sorry for the downtrodden and want to piss off he bullies and screw with them.

If the authority figures are misusing the Law the LG could be justified. I could go on with all the good, N, and LE oe NE. internal reasoning and moral code is the defining thing that determines the Alignment, not the external action.

Not to agree or disagree with any of this, but I can't see any way that it relates to Pippi Longstocking. It wasn't that long ago that I re-read the books with my kids, and none of this seems pertinent to her stories. She's just chaotic, generally for the sole purpose of being chaotic.

On a second note, I completely disagree with your last statement. In my games, both thoughts and acts determine alignment. YMMV. Theologians have been debating that topic since the invention of religion.

 

[Staffan]

On a second note, I completely disagree with your last statement. In my games, both thoughts and acts determine alignment. YMMV. Theologians have been debating that topic since the invention of religion.

Personally, I like Keith Baker's view on alignment: Law/Chaos is about whether you care about individuals or institutions (often one particular institution), while Good/Evil is about scruples.

 

[nevin]

Not to agree or disagree with any of this, but I can't see any way that it relates to Pippi Longstocking. It wasn't that long ago that I re-read the books with my kids, and none of this seems pertinent to her stories. She's just chaotic, generally for the sole purpose of being chaotic.

On a second note, I completely disagree with your last statement. In my games, both thoughts and acts determine alignment. YMMV. Theologians have been debating that topic since the invention of religion.

Hmm philosophers have been debating alignment vs action since religion existed. nope. in fact most religions are very lear that intent is the only thing that matters in your actions. Good actions from bad intent in most religions is judged just as harshly as bad actions with bad intent. its why you do it not what you do.

 

[jian]

Personally, I like Keith Baker's view on alignment: Law/Chaos is about whether you care about individuals or institutions (often one particular institution), while Good/Evil is about scruples.

That’s not a bad way to look at it, though I think Chaos is also about individual rights and weakening or destabilising institutions. Law, for me, is about the rule of law - it’s the idea that we need rules, structure, and institutions to make society work, and so you should follow the rules and uphold the law when possible, because weakening institutions and the rule of law makes everything worse for everybody. Chaos is about personal freedom, the idea that we all need to float our own boat and what works best for us, and should have the freedom to work that out, unhindered by rules or institutions.

Both have a point and I don’t think Lawful Good people are slavishly bound by local laws, and neither are Chaotic Good people entirely committed to letting everyone do their own thing. But they would both feel bad about violating those principles, because a Lawful Good person believes deep down that rules and institutions are what make society work and are entirely necessary, and a Chaotic Good person believes deep down that it almost always works out for the best for each individual to do what’s best for them without anyone telling them what not to do. A Neutral Good person basically think both of those people have a point but thinks that whatever helps people is best, not supporting the principles of law or chaos.

(To get all political about it - as an English person living in Canada, I’d say that Law aligns reasonably well with old-fashioned (and rarely implemented) conscientious conservatism, which is all about not changing stuff if you can help it and upholding the rule of law, but also supports individual rights against those of corporations and the government - the law should protect and bind everyone equally*. Chaos aligns more with modern libertarianism - people and markets should be free and unencumbered by rules and regulations, and we should all be free to become really rich or starve in the gutter, as long as the government isn’t making us pay taxes or otherwise hindering our self-actualisation. Both have really huge problems and I don’t support either but I do see the point, somewhat.

*Yes, I’m aware of the modern definition of conservatism and I agree with it.)

 

[Ryujin]

Personally, I like Keith Baker's view on alignment: Law/Chaos is about whether you care about individuals or institutions (often one particular institution), while Good/Evil is about scruples.

I wish that the alignment descriptions in D&D had perhaps laid things out in this way. As it is they've been open to interpretation. I much prefer the alignments in the various Palladium properties.

 

[Staffan]

Good actions from bad intent in most religions is judged just as harshly as bad actions with bad intent. its why you do it not what you do.

No no no. It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it, and that's what gets results.

80s pop aside, I am kind of fond of Granny Weatherwax's view:
“And that’s what your holy men discuss, is it?”
“Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example.”
“And what do they think? Against it, are they?”
“It’s not as simple as that. It’s not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of grey.”
“Nope.”
“Pardon?”
“There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”
“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”
“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”
“But they starts with thinking about people as things.”

Come to think of it, Granny Weatherwax is a pretty good paragon of Neutral Good. She has an unwavering moral compass. And she recognizes both the utility and limitations of institutions: they're good as long as they help people, but can easily get out of hand and lead to tyranny. She holds a lot of power and could create her own vision of paradise, but she recognizes that her vision is not the same as everyone else's, and so she doesn't.