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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5127731" data-attributes="member: 82106">What's 'must have' about it? The character has a weak AC. OK, that's pretty much just the facts of life for that character. You can CHOOSE to take Leather Armor Proficiency and improve that a bit, or not. I'm guessing you got something for that feat which you feel is more important. Its a trade-off. No feat is absolutely must-have.Personally I'm not sure what the problem is with a high variance in defenses. Just as a point of reference I went back to me 2e PHB and took a look at the saving throw chart. Some representative numbers look like&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Poison/death rod/s/w pet/poly breath spellPriest 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15Rogue 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15warrior 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19wizard 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12Priest 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11Rogue 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11warrior 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; wizard 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 10The upshot is the variance at level 1 is 7 points max. Interestingly enough it actually shrinks from there in 2e. This is almost entirely the result of warriors saves going from abysmal at level 1 (might as well not bother to throw the dice abysmal) to being the best in the game at level 10. The variance on the same CHARACTER is at most 6 points (and aside from the priest death save is never more than 4). If you extend it on up to extreme levels then things diverge again as warriors rapidly outstrip everyone else at high levels. Given that magic items rarely boost only one class of saves in 2e the result is pretty even for a given character, more so than with 4e. The variance between PCs CAN get as high as 10 or more with some pluses for items and some high ability score adjustments though, so I'm not seeing that as radically different.AC OTOH has a MUCH higher variance in 2e. Starting AC for a wizard is pretty much likely to be 10. For a fighter it could easily be 4 and with some ability score variation we can easily get a variance of 7 or even 8 (and in theory 10!). This is a bit more than in 4e. Now advance to level 10 and its not that hard to see the wizard still around AC 5 and the fighter now down south of -2 somewhere and quite possibly -4. So realistically the variance can go from say 6 points at level 1 to 9+ at level 10.Now, notice that the warrior is the prime beneficiary in ALL defense increases. Well, they needed it, but in effect if you aren't a fighter, paladin, or cleric in 2e you just better not get hit at 10th level and really don't want to get hit at lower levels either.So really 4e seems to have pretty similar variation in NADs (saves basically) and less variation in AC by a good bit. I think this reflects the more dynamic combat design in 4e. Most older edition style combats really didn't envision anyone but the fighters and such taking melee hits on a regular basis. In 4e even a wizard should expect to be stuck with a goblin in his face now and then. If there is a problem in 4e it is more in NAD variation at higher levels. The thing is I just don't see it as a system design ISSUE but more as a level of freedom players have in 4e to set their own priorities. In 2e you had fixed saves and the best you could do was boost them all with an item pretty much. Nowadays you can pick and choose which ones to enhance, but there are trade offs.Personally I think 4e overall deemphasises defenses at higher levels. Boosting them seems a bit too expensive for what you get. Maybe not a lot, but a bit. AC OTOH seems about right to me. It works. You can vary it a decent bit but the price of keeping it up is reasonable.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5127731, member: 82106"] What's 'must have' about it? The character has a weak AC. OK, that's pretty much just the facts of life for that character. You can CHOOSE to take Leather Armor Proficiency and improve that a bit, or not. I'm guessing you got something for that feat which you feel is more important. Its a trade-off. No feat is absolutely must-have. Personally I'm not sure what the problem is with a high variance in defenses. Just as a point of reference I went back to me 2e PHB and took a look at the saving throw chart. Some representative numbers look like Poison/death rod/s/w pet/poly breath spell Priest 1 10 14 13 16 15 Rogue 1 13 14 12 16 15 warrior 1 16 18 17 20 19 wizard 1 14 11 13 15 12 Priest 10 6 10 9 12 11 Rogue 10 11 10 10 14 11 warrior 10 8 10 9 9 11 wizard 10 13 9 11 13 10 The upshot is the variance at level 1 is 7 points max. Interestingly enough it actually shrinks from there in 2e. This is almost entirely the result of warriors saves going from abysmal at level 1 (might as well not bother to throw the dice abysmal) to being the best in the game at level 10. The variance on the same CHARACTER is at most 6 points (and aside from the priest death save is never more than 4). If you extend it on up to extreme levels then things diverge again as warriors rapidly outstrip everyone else at high levels. Given that magic items rarely boost only one class of saves in 2e the result is pretty even for a given character, more so than with 4e. The variance between PCs CAN get as high as 10 or more with some pluses for items and some high ability score adjustments though, so I'm not seeing that as radically different. AC OTOH has a MUCH higher variance in 2e. Starting AC for a wizard is pretty much likely to be 10. For a fighter it could easily be 4 and with some ability score variation we can easily get a variance of 7 or even 8 (and in theory 10!). This is a bit more than in 4e. Now advance to level 10 and its not that hard to see the wizard still around AC 5 and the fighter now down south of -2 somewhere and quite possibly -4. So realistically the variance can go from say 6 points at level 1 to 9+ at level 10. Now, notice that the warrior is the prime beneficiary in ALL defense increases. Well, they needed it, but in effect if you aren't a fighter, paladin, or cleric in 2e you just better not get hit at 10th level and really don't want to get hit at lower levels either. So really 4e seems to have pretty similar variation in NADs (saves basically) and less variation in AC by a good bit. I think this reflects the more dynamic combat design in 4e. Most older edition style combats really didn't envision anyone but the fighters and such taking melee hits on a regular basis. In 4e even a wizard should expect to be stuck with a goblin in his face now and then. If there is a problem in 4e it is more in NAD variation at higher levels. The thing is I just don't see it as a system design ISSUE but more as a level of freedom players have in 4e to set their own priorities. In 2e you had fixed saves and the best you could do was boost them all with an item pretty much. Nowadays you can pick and choose which ones to enhance, but there are trade offs. Personally I think 4e overall deemphasises defenses at higher levels. Boosting them seems a bit too expensive for what you get. Maybe not a lot, but a bit. AC OTOH seems about right to me. It works. You can vary it a decent bit but the price of keeping it up is reasonable. [/QUOTE]

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