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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6552094" data-attributes="member: 5834">This is not correct. Multiclassing and the capability of martial classes created more varied characters earlier in the game editions. Rogues at one time were more focused on non-combat activities than combat in the very early editions. You did not play a rogue to do combat. You played a rogue to be super sneaky guy that stole things and scouted. He was a very bad combatant in open battle. He snuck in, landed a backstab, and then let the warriors do the hammering.The ranger also had non-combat capabilities that were helpful and allowed for more varied play.There is no logic involved. Applying logical arguments to a gamed based on traditional fantasy tropes mined from historical and literary sources is not a compelling argument for change. You use a ridiculous example and claim my syllogism is not valid? Your example is not valid. There has been no prejudice towards martials. Fighters have always been limited because they are supposed to be the traditional bare bones fighter. It is a particular fantasy archetype with both a literary and historical lineage. Other archetypes are built in the same fashion. Magic  is less limited than martial characters that traditionally rely on mundane skills with the occasional inclusion of magic items. It always has been according to the source material magic is derived from.Martials have always had options and agency. The problem with your viewpoint is it founded upon the idea that you should have the same options and agency as other classes. That your choice of class should not limit you in any fashion. That does not in any way imitate the source material the game is based on. You somehow want the game designers to create a fantasy game meant to attract fans of fantasy (not anime) that makes casters and martials equal in nearly every facet of the game, when this has not been the case in the very stories the fans read. I have never understood this viewpoint. If you want the game to be played in a certain fashion, why don't you search for a game that fits what you want to do. Why do you continue to complain about a game that does not fit what you want to do. When I wanted to play a James Bond-type character or modern ninja, I played Top Secret or Ninjas and Superspies. Games that simulated the type of genre conventions I enjoy and expect. If your preference is for martials to have super powers like anime characters or superheroes, then find a game system that does that well. D&D is not that system, never has been that system, and probably never will be that system.D&D attempts to simulate a hodgepodge of fantasy and historical elements from various sources dating anywhere from modern day works like The First Law to ancient mythologies from thousands of years ago. You as a player are allowed to use the rule set as you wish to create the type of game you want. Yet because it does not fit what you want do out of the box, you criticize the game? It continues to boggle my mind every time I read such ludicrous complaints and claims. When I and my friends were young and we wanted to play a Hercules or Gilgamesh, we made it up. We used to make martials with extraordinary special abilities up all the time. Assassins with shadowy teleportation powers. Super strong demigods. Rangers that could track demons to the very pits of The Abyss. We started off using the regular ruleset and standard D&D paradigm, Once we knew the rules well, we took off in whatever direction seemed fun at the time making stuff up using the rules as guidelines. If the rules didn't fit what we wanted to do such as playing superheroes or martial artists, we tried a different game. We knew that D&D didn't fit everything we wanted to do. No game does save for perhaps GURPS. It has its own problems including excessive complexity. I suggest you stop limiting yourself by the rules as written and use the game as you want to use it. If that means adding lots of cool options to martials, then do it. If it means banning casters and creating adventures accomplished by mundane skills and capabilities that martials excel at, then do it. Stop making it seem like D&D created some limiting environment that you must adhere to like laws in a corrupt state. That isn't the case. It's more an indication of a limited imagination than a limited rule set. The only "rule" you should ever follow is to have fun. D&D is about having fun with your friends in whatever fashion seems cool to you at a given time.</blockquote>

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