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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6556601" data-attributes="member: 5834">There's nothing "real world" about a D&D martial. In the real world even the very best warrior would die within seconds trying to stand against a dragon or demon. For some reason because the martial can't cast a fireball or teleport, their extraordinary ability with weapons, battle resilience, skills, or other capabilities aren't sufficiently extraordinary to satisfy some tastes. For me the ability to survive close combat with extraordinarily powerful creatures is enough for someone like me to enjoy martial characters. That's what I see them do in fantasy entertainment. Conan is a tough SoB with a strong will, fast reflexes, and extraordinary strength. That is the way Robert E. Howard wrote him. The way he defeats wizards is sneaking up on them or killing them or defeating the enemies they send at him and defeating the magic they cast on him through force of will. You could accomplish this type of environment by eliminating spells or limiting maximum wizard levels. I don't see why some feel the need to force this as a standard paradigm for D&D. There is also the complete avoidance of relative power. Using Gandalf's limited shows of wizardry fails to mention he was still the most powerful character in the story on the side of the protagonists. Saruman was a major villain few of the martial characters could withstand. Even with the Lord of the Rings universe, wizards were still far more powerful than martials. Even The Witchking of Angmar was the most powerful servant of Sauron. It is the same in Conan stories. The relative power of wizards makes them Conan's most formidable and frightening enemies besides gods, demons, and powerful monsters. It is this way in most fantasy literature.Discussion of the exact nature of wizardry in the fantasy genre is pointless given the vast array of magic created by authors. One point I see avoided at all costs in these arguments, is the fact that  99.9% of the fantasy genre portraying the relative power of casters always has them as the most powerful beings in a fantasy world besides gods and monsters. I fail to understand why it is so hard to accept that designers of a fantasy game wouldn't continue this tradition considering it is so common to the genre. You could say it is a fantasy genre trope that fantasy readers expect. It boggles my mind when someone attempt to claim this isn't the case.I guess I don't see how PC martials don't have agency in fantasy adventures. Agency implies being able to affect the story in a  meaningful way. I don't see how the martials don't do so save for lazy DMing. I have never in all my years of DMing not made players that chose to create martial characters an integral and influential part of any adventure I ran. They never felt like they lacked agency. I cannot imagine what kind of games some of you must play in that make these ludicrous claims. You must be playing in campaigns with players that use casters to provide every solution to every problem and a DM that has created encounters that allow such a method of resolution. Somehow this has become your gaming norm to the point you feel impotent and unnecessary playing a martial character. I'm so glad this has never been my experience playing D&D. What a boring game it would be if I couldn't play a Launcelot or Conan and feel like my contribution was as important as the wizard or cleric's. I would never allow this happen. I would feel I was a failure of a DM if I ever created this type of environment for players that they feel completely overshadowed by casters.</blockquote>

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