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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6556726" data-attributes="member: 996">Assuming they could find one to stand against, of course.&nbsp; There have always been a few things you could point to in D&amp;D to get across the idea that high-level martial types were not limited to mundane, RL abilities.&nbsp; Surviving falls from great heights without debilitating injury, for instance. Yet, somehow, those few big-numbers things never seem to open the door for much else.&nbsp; Not even a big number when you attempt a long jump.&nbsp; &nbsp;Hey, if that 1 additional hp per level compared to a cleric means that much to you when playing a fighter...&nbsp;Try coming up with that kind of Will save in 3.5, or WIS in 5e.&nbsp; AD&amp;D fighters had remarkable saves at high level, but that was one of the few things 5e didn't roll back to.&nbsp;Well, he might have been called that.&nbsp; But all we can really look at is what he actually did.&nbsp; Which, was a lot less that what a mid-level D&amp;D wizard would do each adventuring day as a matter of course.&nbsp; Though, of course, he did kill a Balrog.&nbsp; In hand to hand combat.&nbsp; Off screen.&nbsp; &nbsp;How many martial characters went toe-to-toe with him?&nbsp; Maybe he'd've folded like the Witch King.&nbsp;Sure. That's why they gathered armies and manipulated kings instead of blowing their enemies to bits.&nbsp;And ganked by Eowen and a hobbit.&nbsp; The Witchking was prettymuch MacBeth.&nbsp; He received a prophecy of invincibility.&nbsp; It wasn't he was so powerful because he had 'witch' in his title, it was that Fate was saving him for Eowen to kill.&nbsp;In most fantasy literature, yes, wizards are depicted as powerful - powerful villains.&nbsp; And heroes - mostly martial heroes - defeat them anyway, just like they defeat huge dragons and terrible demons.&nbsp; When casters are protagonists, OTOH, their powers get dialed down, a lot.&nbsp; Or, failing that, every protagonist in the story becomes a caster.&nbsp;When they're villains, or plot devices, sure.&nbsp; When they're the heroes, themselves, not so much.&nbsp; And, again, if you look at the abilities displayed by any individual caster in genre, they're usually a lot less varied and powerful than what D&amp;D wizards are playing around with.&nbsp; The more so when they're the heroes of the story, rather than some plot device character giving the hero a lift to hell or a villain trying to re-locate him there permanently.&nbsp;So you don't see how the beatstick whose only choice is what order to kill the one or two monsters he'll chew through before the casters' spells annihilate the other 40, might not be making too big an impact?D&amp;D martial classes lack choices, let alone meaningful choices, compared to casters.&nbsp; It's that simple.&nbsp; You can't affect the story in a meaningful way without 'em.&nbsp; Otherwise you might as well be scenery.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6556726, member: 996"] Assuming they could find one to stand against, of course. There have always been a few things you could point to in D&D to get across the idea that high-level martial types were not limited to mundane, RL abilities. Surviving falls from great heights without debilitating injury, for instance. Yet, somehow, those few big-numbers things never seem to open the door for much else. Not even a big number when you attempt a long jump. Hey, if that 1 additional hp per level compared to a cleric means that much to you when playing a fighter... Try coming up with that kind of Will save in 3.5, or WIS in 5e. AD&D fighters had remarkable saves at high level, but that was one of the few things 5e didn't roll back to. Well, he might have been called that. But all we can really look at is what he actually did. Which, was a lot less that what a mid-level D&D wizard would do each adventuring day as a matter of course. Though, of course, he did kill a Balrog. In hand to hand combat. Off screen. How many martial characters went toe-to-toe with him? Maybe he'd've folded like the Witch King. Sure. That's why they gathered armies and manipulated kings instead of blowing their enemies to bits. And ganked by Eowen and a hobbit. The Witchking was prettymuch MacBeth. He received a prophecy of invincibility. It wasn't he was so powerful because he had 'witch' in his title, it was that Fate was saving him for Eowen to kill. In most fantasy literature, yes, wizards are depicted as powerful - powerful villains. And heroes - mostly martial heroes - defeat them anyway, just like they defeat huge dragons and terrible demons. When casters are protagonists, OTOH, their powers get dialed down, a lot. Or, failing that, every protagonist in the story becomes a caster. When they're villains, or plot devices, sure. When they're the heroes, themselves, not so much. And, again, if you look at the abilities displayed by any individual caster in genre, they're usually a lot less varied and powerful than what D&D wizards are playing around with. The more so when they're the heroes of the story, rather than some plot device character giving the hero a lift to hell or a villain trying to re-locate him there permanently. So you don't see how the beatstick whose only choice is what order to kill the one or two monsters he'll chew through before the casters' spells annihilate the other 40, might not be making too big an impact? D&D martial classes lack choices, let alone meaningful choices, compared to casters. It's that simple. You can't affect the story in a meaningful way without 'em. Otherwise you might as well be scenery. [/QUOTE]

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