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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6557433" data-attributes="member: 996">No, first I claimed that D&amp;D failed to model genre.&nbsp; Then we went into a little inconclusive examination of whether it maybe didn't model the Dying Earth all that badly.&nbsp; Then you zeroed in on Conan, zeroed in on standing up to some sort of mind-affecting magic as one thing Conan could do, and that a crazy-lucky-rolled 18th level fighter using an optional rule system could probably do 3 times out of 4, and declared victory.&nbsp;Try finding some spell being cast by a protagonist mage - or even a plot-device mage or villain - in genre (that actually goes off and works, rather than being countered or promptly reversed by&nbsp; some Deus Ex Machina), that can't be duplicated or bettered by a D&amp;D spell.&nbsp; The D&amp;D spell might be Wish some of the time, but you won't exactly find a lot of 'em.&nbsp;I think you're comparing the bluster and reputation or relative power of genre casters (relative to throwaway 'red shirt' type characters, for instance), rather than what they actually /do/.&nbsp; The wizard might casually kill a minion who displeases him, maybe even incinerate or disintegrate the poor mook - but if the guy is the equivalent of an 11 hp guard in D&amp;D, a high level Wizard's cantrip is going to do the same.&nbsp; Difference is that's probably the evil wizard's go to attack that he throws at the hero (who always seems able to 'dodge' it since he has triple digit hps) a few times before the hero finally ganks him, with any other tricks up his sleeve requiring long rituals or the like, while the D&amp;D wizard has a ton of spell slots that do /more/ craziness in a matter of seconds.Now, it is true that a genre caster might well be able to so something a lot more /often/ than a D&amp;D wizard, because of Vancian casting, and that's nothing to sneeze at.&nbsp; But not that many somethings compared to what the wizard has in his spellbook.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6557433, member: 996"] No, first I claimed that D&D failed to model genre. Then we went into a little inconclusive examination of whether it maybe didn't model the Dying Earth all that badly. Then you zeroed in on Conan, zeroed in on standing up to some sort of mind-affecting magic as one thing Conan could do, and that a crazy-lucky-rolled 18th level fighter using an optional rule system could probably do 3 times out of 4, and declared victory. Try finding some spell being cast by a protagonist mage - or even a plot-device mage or villain - in genre (that actually goes off and works, rather than being countered or promptly reversed by some Deus Ex Machina), that can't be duplicated or bettered by a D&D spell. The D&D spell might be Wish some of the time, but you won't exactly find a lot of 'em. I think you're comparing the bluster and reputation or relative power of genre casters (relative to throwaway 'red shirt' type characters, for instance), rather than what they actually /do/. The wizard might casually kill a minion who displeases him, maybe even incinerate or disintegrate the poor mook - but if the guy is the equivalent of an 11 hp guard in D&D, a high level Wizard's cantrip is going to do the same. Difference is that's probably the evil wizard's go to attack that he throws at the hero (who always seems able to 'dodge' it since he has triple digit hps) a few times before the hero finally ganks him, with any other tricks up his sleeve requiring long rituals or the like, while the D&D wizard has a ton of spell slots that do /more/ craziness in a matter of seconds. Now, it is true that a genre caster might well be able to so something a lot more /often/ than a D&D wizard, because of Vancian casting, and that's nothing to sneeze at. But not that many somethings compared to what the wizard has in his spellbook. [/QUOTE]

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