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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6557448" data-attributes="member: 6787650">It wasn't me who "zeroed in" on Will saves actually, it was in fact you. See above where you responded to "The way he defeats wizards is sneaking up on them or killing them or defeating the enemies they send at him and defeating the magic they cast on him through force of will." with "Try coming up with that kind of Will save in 3.5, or WIS in 5e. AD&D fighters had remarkable saves at high level, but that was one of the few things 5e didn't roll back to." The challenge was easily met.I will plead guilty to "zeroing in" on false claims that interest me, perhaps ignoring your larger point inadvertently in the process. That's the nature of Internet forum discussions, especially on Enworld where context gets lost with every quote, and if that's the case here feel free to say, "I concede the point. But I was really more interested in discussing such-and-such" and if I then have anything to say about such-and-such, I will. Otherwise I'll bow out and the people who want to discuss such-and-such will do so. That's what happened with Dying Earth; notice that I bowed out as soon as you stopped making factually incorrect claims about Phandaal's and Pandelume's respective limitations.(The below is written in the assumption that by "D&D" you mean "5E D&D", since that's the forum we're on. If you just mean that there is some edition of D&D somewhere where wizards are powerful, then I apologize for misunderstanding your claim.)Well, Pug's a protagonist, and he creates wormholes between the stars (not possible in 5E), he can travel backwards through time (also not possible in 5E), and destroys the planet Kelewan by creating a rift big enough to hit it with its own moon (definitely not possible in 5E). As mentioned previously, Lord Voldemort can permanently mentally dominate other people, which is beyond the abilities of any spell in 5E. He's not a protagonist, but guess what? Any wizard can cast that spell, including Harry Potter, the 17-year-old protagonist! So that counts too. It's hard to measure the limits of Niven's Warlock (also a protagonist, facing a barbarian with an enchanted sword that makes him invulnerable to everything but itself), but he tells a story to Hap the Barbarian of casting powerful spells in his younger days, before he'd learned as much as he knows now, of using flashy, showy spells like "armies turned to stone, or wiped out by lightning, instead of simple death spells," so whatever his limits are, he's also clearly working at a scope beyond anything a 5E wizard can manage. (Maybe an AD&D wizard could do it, but 5E wizards can't.)I trust the point is made? I don't care how you play your game, and I don't even care if you dislike 5E--I just care about the correct facts. You can say that you don't like 5E wizards and think they are too powerful and I won't mind. YMMV. But if you say they can do anything and everything that genre wizards do, well, I will take exception to that because it's factually incorrect, and I don't want someone reading that claim and believing it. My counterclaim is that 5E wizards are relatively weak compared to AD&D wizards. (Obviously they are weak compared to Pug/Anomander Rake/Warlock et al., but that's not a claim interesting enough to discuss here on this board.) This is of course by design.</blockquote>

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