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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6558474" data-attributes="member: 996">That character was just not registering with me.&nbsp; So if finally looked it up, and, OK, maybe it's fantasy or maybe it's science-fantasy, but, it's interesting, because Fiest is on record as saying it was inspired by the EPT and D&amp;D rpgs.&nbsp; I don't know how I've missed that all these years, but, it means: 1) I've got a /much/ better example of D&amp;D influence genre than the bunch of FR and Dragonlance novels out there, and2) As an example of D&amp;D successfully emulating genre or being justified, by genre, in making casters overpowered, it's circular.&nbsp;You really do.&nbsp; Both of protagonist casters displaying abilities far beyond those of D&amp;D wizards in power, availability and versatility /and/ in that being so typical of the genre that D&amp;D /had/ to make casters so overpowered to emulate the genre.&nbsp; &nbsp;Actually abilities displayed would be most helpful in making your point.&nbsp; Not things that may have been implied.&nbsp; Nor things that are fairly common to genre, but dialed up to eleven in area effect (which, yeah, D&amp;D is a comparatively small-scale game, it doesn't generally address either armies nor whipping armies out, wargame roots notwithstanding).&nbsp; &nbsp;That's a slightly more extreme form of the claim I made.&nbsp; D&amp;D caster pull abilities from all over the genre, and have access to /lots/ of those abilities, relative to characters of similar archetype, especially protagonists, in genre.&nbsp;&nbsp; D&amp;D non-casters, OTOH, don't consistently pull the kinds of stunts corresponding archetypes in genre do, tending to fall short of them both in what they can do, and how broad a range of things they can do, individually.&nbsp; In addition, D&amp;D tends to be pretty terrible at modeling genre takes on magic, because fire-and-forget casting is so damn rare outside of D&amp;D.&nbsp; 'Always' is a really unnecessary qualifier, there.&nbsp; The fantasy genre ranges from what D&amp;D would call 'low level' to mythic craziness D&amp;D has only occasionally addressed (D&amp;D Immortals, Epic tiers in 3e &amp; 4e).&nbsp; Turning armies to stone, for instance, is something a single D&amp;D wizard couldn't do, but turning people to stone /is/ something they can do.&nbsp; The scale is different, the ability isn't.&nbsp; The way you rephrase the claim, the existence of 1st level wizards, alone, would 'disprove' it.&nbsp;So, if I said that I'd have zero fun playing a Wizard who prepped spells and used bunches of slots to cast them, that would mean the wizard would have to be reduced to 0 cantrips?No.&nbsp; Balanced options should exist.&nbsp; Inferior options can even exist - they just should be presented honestly as such, like playing an Expert or Aristocrat in 3.x - and not be the only options for a given archetype.&nbsp;Not the topic at hand.&nbsp; The fighter can already be magical, and multi-classing can make him more so.&nbsp; Magic is a very readily available in 5e, with 33 of 38 PC sub-classes having magical abilities of one sort or another, no class being without a magically-empowered archetype.&nbsp; It's balanced, player-agency-providing, choices for character archetypes that don't include such abilities that are lacking.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6558474, member: 996"] That character was just not registering with me. So if finally looked it up, and, OK, maybe it's fantasy or maybe it's science-fantasy, but, it's interesting, because Fiest is on record as saying it was inspired by the EPT and D&D rpgs. I don't know how I've missed that all these years, but, it means: 1) I've got a /much/ better example of D&D influence genre than the bunch of FR and Dragonlance novels out there, and 2) As an example of D&D successfully emulating genre or being justified, by genre, in making casters overpowered, it's circular. You really do. Both of protagonist casters displaying abilities far beyond those of D&D wizards in power, availability and versatility /and/ in that being so typical of the genre that D&D /had/ to make casters so overpowered to emulate the genre. Actually abilities displayed would be most helpful in making your point. Not things that may have been implied. Nor things that are fairly common to genre, but dialed up to eleven in area effect (which, yeah, D&D is a comparatively small-scale game, it doesn't generally address either armies nor whipping armies out, wargame roots notwithstanding). That's a slightly more extreme form of the claim I made. D&D caster pull abilities from all over the genre, and have access to /lots/ of those abilities, relative to characters of similar archetype, especially protagonists, in genre. D&D non-casters, OTOH, don't consistently pull the kinds of stunts corresponding archetypes in genre do, tending to fall short of them both in what they can do, and how broad a range of things they can do, individually. In addition, D&D tends to be pretty terrible at modeling genre takes on magic, because fire-and-forget casting is so damn rare outside of D&D. 'Always' is a really unnecessary qualifier, there. The fantasy genre ranges from what D&D would call 'low level' to mythic craziness D&D has only occasionally addressed (D&D Immortals, Epic tiers in 3e & 4e). Turning armies to stone, for instance, is something a single D&D wizard couldn't do, but turning people to stone /is/ something they can do. The scale is different, the ability isn't. The way you rephrase the claim, the existence of 1st level wizards, alone, would 'disprove' it. So, if I said that I'd have zero fun playing a Wizard who prepped spells and used bunches of slots to cast them, that would mean the wizard would have to be reduced to 0 cantrips? No. Balanced options should exist. Inferior options can even exist - they just should be presented honestly as such, like playing an Expert or Aristocrat in 3.x - and not be the only options for a given archetype. Not the topic at hand. The fighter can already be magical, and multi-classing can make him more so. Magic is a very readily available in 5e, with 33 of 38 PC sub-classes having magical abilities of one sort or another, no class being without a magically-empowered archetype. It's balanced, player-agency-providing, choices for character archetypes that don't include such abilities that are lacking. [/QUOTE]

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