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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 4860412" data-attributes="member: 3146">Probably it's best to first look at why the first party does not work (well).1. Ensnaring Swordmage, fey-pact warlock, preserving invoker, laser cleric, dark pact warlock.A. Only one character in the first party has any business near melee. Everyone else is relatively low AC and relatively low hp and will have to either shift or provoke OAs to use most of their powers. And if there is a wall or two enemies, it is quite possible that they will not be able to shift and then use their powers without provoking an OA.B. Ensnaring swordmages don't prevent damage. They don't damage enemies for hurting party members. They just move enemies around if they ignore the mark. Which really does very little to prevent the enemy from shifting away from the swordmage and charging that same ally again. C. This is a low damage party. The swordmage is a low damage defender (and ensnaring swordmages are the lowest damage of all). The invoker is a relatively low damage controller, the laser cleric is very low on the damage pole for leaders, and warlocks are the bottom of the pack for strikers (in fact, most aggressive defenders and some leaders can frequently outdamage warlocks--especially fey pact warlocks).D. No-one in the party has much of anything that is usable beyond range 10. So if it is a ranged duel, the enemy can sit 12 squares away and there's not much the party can do about it. So they're pwned in melee and pwned at long range too.So, A means that the enemy pretty much has a blank check to go where they want because there aren't any scary OAs out there. A. also means that the enemy can dramatically reduce the party's offensive output or even more dramatically increase their own simply my movement and positioning. (If four foes flank up on, say, the cleric, said cleric is reduced to melee attacks (good luck with that as a laser cleric) or will have to shift and then provoke two OAs in order to attack. If there are five monsters, the cleric switching to ineffective melee mod corresponds to a 15-20% reduction in the party's offensive capacity. Giving two monsters OAs results in a 40% increase in the monsters' offensive capacity. You can't afford to do that as a party.B. means that the party's defender does not really provide much disincentive so the enemy is able to concentrate their attacks as much as they want.C. means that the combat is going to drag on which is far more to the advantage of monsters whose powers generally recharge than to the advantage of PCs who have very limited daily powers and will usually be reduced to at-will powers after the first 1-4 rounds of combat.Now, if you contrast that with the other party I sketched out:tempest fighter, rageblood barbarian, archer ranger, wizard, inspiring warlordYou will see quite a few differences.A. This party has a front line. The tempest fighter, rageblood barbarian, and inspiring warlord all have solid ACs and have powers that work fine in melee. Consequently, a foe wishing to move around them to attack the wizard or the archer will have to incurr OAs and the fighter's OA will also stop the movement.B. The party's defender has the ability to mark multiple foes and provides the foes he has marked with a hefty disincentive to attack anyone else. This will enable the party to keep the monsters from ganging up on anyone but the fighter.C. This is a relatively high damage party. Tempest fighters do quite a bit of damage (though less single target damage than they did pre-errata). Rageblood barbarians do a lot of damage too. Inspiring warlords also do good damage for leaders. And rangers are pretty much the gold standard for dealing damage. What is more, the best inspiring warlord powers focus and increase the party's damage. Inspired Belligerence+warlord's strike = +1+2x cha damage to the target until the warlord's next turn and hammer and anvil will give the barbarian or fighter an extra swing with that bonus damage (and another Cha mod of damage tossed in for kicks). D. Everyone in the party has attacks that are usable beyond range 10 (while a bunch of javalins may not be much, the fighter's javalin at least amounts to -2 to the opponent's attacks against the people it should be concentrating on and having those javalins is a lot better than having nothing), one party member (the archery ranger) probably has a close range of 25 (greatbow) and many wizard encounter and daily powers are range 20. If the wizard selected magic missile (and she probably did because the inspiring warlord will be picking up quite a few "everyone makes a basic attack" powers throughout paragon), she also has a range 20 at-will power.Now this is not an ideal party, but it is a very solid one. And it serves well to illustrate the difference between actually being a balanced party and having merely checked off all of the boxes next to each of WotC's dedicated party role labels.The third party goes further in the illustration:Two blade ranger, thaneborn barbarian, chaos sorcerer, star-pact warlock, tactical warlord. No defender and no controller, just four strikers and a leader.So, why is this a better party than the first one? Well, we'll start out with those same categories.A. This party has a front line. A foe can shift+charge or risk OAs to get to the people they want to attack but they can't just waltz up to whoever they want to without fear of OAs. They will take damage if they want to achieve the positioning they want to get. Additionally, this party has 60% of it melee capable. So, while the enemy can shut down the warlock or the sorcerer with positioning just like they would shut down the characters in party #1, they can't do it to anyone and three party members should be able to pay in through OAs if they try. (Plus the warlord can wolf-pack tactics the surrounded ally to a position where a shift will enable ranged or area attacks without OAs).B. This party has no defender and the lack of aggression control doesn't help them out. On the other hand, a weak defender like the ensnaring swordmage doesn't help out there either. It's a weakness that will be overcome.C. This party can bring the damage. The barbarian is a good ally for commander's strike and the sorcerer has lots of area attacks that can take advantage of adaptive stratagem and tactical assault. The ranger likewise can take advantage of warlord's favor and tactical assault. Dead monsters don't hit back. While it is not immediately obvious, it is also likely that the party can provide some serious debuffs to enable the entire party to go to town on a foe. The thaneborn barbarian's roar of triumph and shatterbone strike and the warlock's frigid darkness as well as lead the attack and warlord's favor can ensure that a couple of foes go from the standard 50% hit rate to an 80 or 90% hit chance for a couple rounds. When all of your attacks land and you can time some damage boosts (encounters, dailies, action points, adaptive stratagem, etc) to coincide with the defense debuffs, you can dish out a lot of targeted damage quickly.D. This party is also reasonably competent at range (though the warlock's limitation to range 10 is unfortunate, quite a few sorcerer powers have longer range and the melee characters can all use javalins. Many melee rangers are also competent archers).E. The absence of a controller is illusory. Warlocks are labeled strikers, but the majority of their better powers give up damage in order to inflict status conditions like immobilize or prone or to push foes. Con based warlocks also have a lot of wizard-style zone attacks as daily powers. Sorcerers bring the area attack portion of the controller portfolio to the table and have a few zone powers of their own. Essentially, the star-pact warlock and the sorcerer in this party killed a wizard and each of them took half of the wizard's stuff. Thus the entire controller role is filled in this party even though none of the members of the party fit into one of WotC's controller boxes.Addressing the party Mengu provided to buttress my point:Again, if you look at this party, you see that it has a front line. It also has plenty of aggression control in the various defenders. While it appears to lack strikers, Mengu is absolutely correct when he points out that every member of this party is doing near striker level damage. In fact, if we speculate a bit on the characters:Half orc tempest fighter: 18 strength, urgrosh and chain mail: basic attack 1d12+6 (avg 12.5); 1d12+2/ 1d8+2 dual strikeFire Genasi assault swordmage: 18 Int, 1d10+4 plus white lotus Riposte (4) or triggered mark (1d10+4)Longtooth shifter avenging paladin: 18 str, 18 Wis, fullblade 1d12+8 holy strikeelf predator druid: at least as much as a wizardGoliath battle cleric: 18 str, greatsword 1d10+6Compare that to a standard warlock (eldritch blast 1d10+4 +1d6 curse) and every member of the party (except for maybe the druid) is at the same level. If everyone in the party is doing at least low-striker level damage, then you've got that aspect of the striker role covered.Now, I think this party has some serious weaknesses in the ranged area--only the druid has anything better than a javalin, but it serves well to illustrate that the presence or absence of the WotC approved roles do not define a balanced party, let alone an optimized one.</blockquote>

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