Party Tactics and Rules III: Shock and Awe

[andargor]

Hi all,

Here are a few rule questions from our last game session. As usual, I'm including a narrative to provide a background for the questions. I've however followed someone's suggestion to put the narrative in Story Hour, and I've cross-linked it back here. I hope this is ok with the mods.

Here is the narrative:

Party Tactics and Rules III: Shock and Awe

The previous installments of the narrative, and the previous rule questions are here:

Party Tactics and Rules
Party Tactics and Rules II: The Path to Stupidity

And here are the rule questions:

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

- Does the target of the spell know when someone casts at them, even if they succeed their saving throw? (e.g.: Sleep)

- Sa'Keb cut the unconscious sentinel's throat, judging her a security risk. His alignment is LN. Is this an evil act? He did not take any pleasure in it.

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

- Can someone levitating, either by the spell or with boots, be upside down? Can the person control whether they are upside down or right side up?

- When a BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks with a full attack action, if a target is dropped with the first attack, can the second be used against another target within reach?

- Do all attacks from a full attack action have to be on the same target, or can they be split amongst targets within reach? (we're still having 2nd Ed. flashbacks)

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

Thanks in advance!

Andargor

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I can answer some of those questions, but I'll let some of the better rulesmasters answer the others.

Hi all,

Here are a few rule questions from our last game session. As usual, I'm including a narrative to provide a background for the questions. I've however followed someone's suggestion to put the narrative in Story Hour, and I've cross-linked it back here. I hope this is ok with the mods.

Here is the narrative:

Party Tactics and Rules III: Shock and Awe

The previous installments of the narrative, and the previous rule questions are here:

Party Tactics and Rules
Party Tactics and Rules II: The Path to Stupidity

And here are the rule questions:

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

- Does the target of the spell know when someone casts at them, even if they succeed their saving throw? (e.g.: Sleep)

These are the questions I'm not sure about, myself.

- Sa'Keb cut the unconscious sentinel's throat, judging her a security risk. His alignment is LN. Is this an evil act? He did not take any pleasure in it.

That's so debatable I'm not going to even start...are there any great consequences to it being an evil act? does it matter? What does the DM think?

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as normal. So if it takes 1 round per 5' by 5' area normally, when taking 20 it takes 20rounds per 5' by 5' area.

- Can someone levitating, either by the spell or with boots, be upside down? Can the person control whether they are upside down or right side up?

Pass.

- When a BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks with a full attack action, if a target is dropped with the first attack, can the second be used against another target within reach?

I believe so. And I can see no reason why not. Note that according to the PHB, pg 124, you can take a 5' step before, during or after your attacks.

- Do all attacks from a full attack action have to be on the same target, or can they be split amongst targets within reach? (we're still having 2nd Ed. flashbacks)

Same thing. Split them up however you like.

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

You can only take free actions on your round, but at any time during your turn. The number is basically however many your DM will take as reasonable. Although there are ramifications to all of this...

Hope my answers help, and that more learned fellows fill you in on the rest!

 

[Dr. Zoom]

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

Yes. Technically, the party rolls for initiative and then acts in order of initiative in the surprise round.

- Does the target of the spell know when someone casts at them, even if they succeed their saving throw? (e.g.: Sleep)

Yes, see page 150 in the PH under "Succeeding at a Saving Throw."

- Sa'Keb cut the unconscious sentinel's throat, judging her a security risk. His alignment is LN. Is this an evil act? He did not take any pleasure in it.

Depends. I didn't read the narrative, so I am not sure.

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

Yes, because there is no penalty for failure. Check out this article by Sean K. Reynolds on taking 20, especially for the Search skill.

- Can someone levitating, either by the spell or with boots, be upside down? Can the person control whether they are upside down or right side up?

Not by just using the spell or item.

- When a BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks with a full attack action, if a target is dropped with the first attack, can the second be used against another target within reach?

Yes, and you could also take a 5 foot step to reach that other target.

- Do all attacks from a full attack action have to be on the same target, or can they be split amongst targets within reach? (we're still having 2nd Ed. flashbacks)

They can be split between targets, and you may take a 5 foot step between attacks if you wish. See PH page 124 under Full Attack.

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

Any time during one's turn. How many is left up to the DM.

 

[orbitalfreak]

All of this IMHO, AFAIK, JPLQA, and whatever...

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

Yes, in the surprise round. Each member of the party is considered aware of the encounter (obvious, if they're setting up an ambush). Thus, each character gets a single partial action. Then initiative is rolled, and combat takes place normally (note: characters can have a surpris round, then roll high enough on init to still go before the sentinel).

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

Yes, and Yes.

- When a BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks with a full attack action, if a target is dropped with the first attack, can the second be used against another target within reach?

Yes. In fact, you can take your first attack, see the results of that, and then decide if you want to take more attacks (aginst anyone in reach) or move away. If, for example, you realize you didn't damage the enemy with your sword, because of DR or something, you can choose to run away instead of taking the rest of your attacks.

- Do all attacks from a full attack action have to be on the same target, or can they be split amongst targets within reach? (we're still having 2nd Ed. flashbacks)

You are allowed to split attacks amongst anyone in reach.

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

Free actions take place during that character's turn. Usually, there are no restrictions on when they take place, or on how many you can attempt in a turn. Of course, the DM can limit this using common sense.

Thanks in advance!

Andargor

You're welcome!

 

[Bauglir]

I'll cover what I can

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

Yep. If the sentinel was unaware they were there then combat starts with a surprise round, in which the party each gets a partial action (this can be a single attack, a single move, or a spell). After this initiative is rolled and combat continues as normal.

- Does the target of the spell know when someone casts at them, even if they succeed their saving throw? (e.g.: Sleep)

Yes. When a save is made both the spell's target and the caster are aware. I can't remember the reference and I don't have the book right here though so you'll just have to trust me

- Sa'Keb cut the unconscious sentinel's throat, judging her a security risk. His alignment is LN. Is this an evil act? He did not take any pleasure in it.

That's up to you. IMO to do so is an evil act, however those of neutral alignment will perform an evil act when they deem it necessary, just as they will work for good when they think they should.

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

Take 20 can be used in any situation where rolling a 1 has no real consequences, so searching for secret doors is fine, but for example taking 20 in craft: armor wouldn't be doable, as a 1 would destroy the armor.

- Can someone levitating, either by the spell or with boots, be upside down? Can the person control whether they are upside down or right side up?

I don't see why not. Might have some unfortunate side effects on people with pockets full of spell components though.

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

Free actions can occur at any time during the character's turn, and one can perform as many of them as they like. Reasonable restrictions will of course apply, such as not taking an infinite number of 5ft steps per round I'm not sure what the exact restrictions are by the rules, though. I'll keep an eye on here to find out.

 

[Pax]

Hi all,

Here are a few rule questions from our last game session. As usual, I'm including a narrative to provide a background for the questions. I've however followed someone's suggestion to put the narrative in Story Hour, and I've cross-linked it back here. I hope this is ok with the mods.

[Oni No Snippage has a snack]

And here are the rule questions:

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

Not before initiative is rolled, no. The "attack form ambush" shuld have been handled as a clear case of a surprise round, with only the PC's getting to act.

- Does the target of the spell know when someone casts at them, even if they succeed their saving throw? (e.g.: Sleep)

AFAIK, yes. Also a spellcaster knows if their spell fails or succeeds, if it targets a specific person creature etc (say, a Charm Person spell).

- Sa'Keb cut the unconscious sentinel's throat, judging her a security risk. His alignment is LN. Is this an evil act? He did not take any pleasure in it.

I'd say, no. A Good Character would not only have lacked pleasure, but would likely have been distressed by it; however, a LN character, thinking on behalf of the group they ascribe membership in (the PC party), and acting solely in the group's interests (terminating a security risk), is not needfully an evil act.

The main clincher is: how MUCH of a security risk was the slit-ee? And were there other, equally efficacious but less-easy ways to secure the prisoner?

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

Sure; with enough time and looking, EVENTUALLY you will find the door. It should take 20x as long as it would to drop the die once; if the GM rules that the room/wall/wherever will take 3 minutes to search, then it takes 20x that -- or one hour -- to "take 20" on that search.

- Can someone levitating, either by the spell or with boots, be upside down? Can the person control whether they are upside down or right side up?

DM's call. I tend to view levitation as similar to weightlessness ... meaning, it's hard to DO much, without being braced, and NOT flip end over end (i.e. swinging a sword at something).

- When a BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks with a full attack action, if a target is dropped with the first attack, can the second be used against another target within reach?

Absolutely. In fact, if the first attack drops someone, you can decide NOT to have made a full attack, and make a move. That one's right int he PHB, IIRC.

- Do all attacks from a full attack action have to be on the same target, or can they be split amongst targets within reach? (we're still having 2nd Ed. flashbacks)

Anything your weapon can hit. With a bow, that could be (say) four people, one to each direction of the compass.

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

As often during your own turn, as the GM allows -- but only during your own turn.

 

[Wormwood]

edit: took so l;ong to type that three people answered before me.

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

IMO, once they spotted the Sentinel, you should roll of initiative. If the Sentinel doesn't spot them, give them a Surprise round (partial actions) to act.

- Does the target of the spell know when someone casts at them, even if they succeed their saving throw? (e.g.: Sleep)

Yes.

- Sa'Keb cut the unconscious sentinel's throat, judging her a security risk. His alignment is LN. Is this an evil act? He did not take any pleasure in it.

Pleasure or not, it's probably a tic in the evil direction. Not enough to warrant an alignment shift on it's own, though.

- Can Take 20 be used to find a secret door? How long does it take? 2 minutes per 5' of wall?

You can take 20. 2 minutes is correct.

- Can someone levitating, either by the spell or with boots, be upside down? Can the person control whether they are upside down or right side up?

I don't see why they couldn't. Side to side is mentioned in the spell, nothing about reorienting your axis.

- When a BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks with a full attack action, if a target is dropped with the first attack, can the second be used against another target within reach?

Yes.

- Do all attacks from a full attack action have to be on the same target, or can they be split amongst targets within reach? (we're still having 2nd Ed. flashbacks)

Divide as you see fit.

- When can a free action occur? At any time during one's turn? At any time? How many free actions can you make in a round?

Your turn only, any time therein. There is no set limit, but DM's are free to impose common sense.

 

[Quidam]

- The party members, hidden, simultaneously ambush the sentinel. Can spells and missiles be launched this way before initiative is rolled?

Just want to pipe up with my agreement with Pax. They can't attack before initiative is rolled, as initiative is rolled before the surprise round takes place- it might be important to know what order their actions take place during the surprise round.

 

[Celebrim]

You seem to be getting alot of good rules responces, so let me pipe up on the question of lawfulness.

Lawful neutral gives you alot of leeway to do otherwise evil things, but at the same time it is quite constraining on when you can do these things:

1) You need to have clear authority to act. You can't just be acting on your own initiative. If the character is not bound to the service of some larger organization, did the party at least agree to this course of action? Would/were some members of the party offended by the act (or would they be offended if they knew)?

2) Lawful systems of morality should not have many ambiguities. The character should know based on his moral code when murder is permissable. If the moral code doesn't cover the situation, it should be a source of great stress to the character - possibly paralyzing them into inaction. At the least, such a character should seek out higher authority to determine if he has acted 'wisely', and should be penitant of the moral authority disagrees.

3) The character has to see his action as in the service of some larger group - and he has to be right! Moreover, he cannot break the code even if breaking the the code appears to be in service of the larger group - this would be leaning away from lawfulness and toward something else.

4) The code can't be utterly ruthless (that would be lawful evil). For every case in which murder is permissable to perserve the interests of the group, there has to be balancing cases where it is clearly not permissable.

 

[andargor]

My group thanks you very much for the interesting answers!

On the subjct of rotating while levitating:

Originally posted by Bauglir
I don't see why not. Might have some unfortunate side effects on people with pockets full of spell components though.

Originally posted by Pax
DM's call. I tend to view levitation as similar to weightlessness ... meaning, it's hard to DO much, without being braced, and NOT flip end over end (i.e. swinging a sword at something).

Originally posted by Wormwood
I don't see why they couldn't. Side to side is mentioned in the spell, nothing about reorienting your axis.

I'll suggest to the DM that a levitating person cannot rotate under her own power. However, if she is against a wall or tree, for example, she could use it as leverage to turn in any direction. Maybe we'll make it a MEA for balance purposes. Goes with the "weightless" theory.

As for components, I agree that it would be more difficult to cast upside down, but we'll probably leave that as an abstraction. Othewise we'd have to deal with all sorts of situations, like Spider Climb. The DM, of course, can Rule 0 in some situations where he feels it's unreasonable.

As for the "evil act":

You need to have clear authority to act.

(snip)

The character has to see his action as in the service of some larger group

Sa'Keb is the leader of the group. He approves our courses of action, and he is the duly appointed representative of the organization we work for, called the Triad. We are also in military service for the Emperor, and Sa'Keb is our "squad leader". So, yes he has lawful authority.

The recovery of the casters is of great concern for the Triad and the Emperor. So much, that the Triad sent one of their highest representatives to prevent the local military commander (a Lord) from mobilizing the party out of the region. Considering we were CL 4 when this happened, we're still wondering why the heck we are so important... So Sa'Keb uses extreme prejudice to accomplish the mission.

The question came up because the DM was concerned, but he is open to comments.

Thanks again!

Andargor