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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6500670" data-attributes="member: 2011">The same is true in the opposite direction.5 NPCs are hiding. One is bound to roll low stealth against the passive perception of the PCs and alert them.This is why group stealth checks were invented. Because the problem exists in both directions.The problem with this system is that if anyone spots the NPCs, it is always the PC(s) with the best passive perception(s). There is no randomness.The only solution that I can think of to add randomness is to have a group perception check versus a group stealth check and use the median stealth check as the DC that a given individual needs to roll to determine who gets to act in the surprise round.For example:5 NPCs are sneaking up on a party of 5 PCs who are just starting to camp out for the night.The NPCs roll Stealth rolls of: 5, 7, 11, 12, and 15The PCs roll Perception rolls of: 2, 5, 9, 13, and 18The median Stealth is 11. Any PC with a Perception equal to or higher than 11 get to act during the surprise round. If there are an even number of NPCs (e.g. 5, 7, 12, and 15), use the average between the two middle NPCs, in this case 9.This type of system does have another advantage. Total surprise in 5E is devastating. The minimum number of surprising foes that get to attack is equal to the number of foes and the maximum number is that number times two (if all of the foes won initiative). So with 5 foes, anywhere from 5 to 10 turns by foes before the other side even gets a single character to act.In the opposite direction (PCs sneaking up on NPCs), then there is no need for the NPCs to roll a group perception roll. Just use the passive perception of the NPCs versus the group stealth of the PCs. Any NPC whose passive perception is equal to or higher than the median roll is not surprised.The reason to roll group perception for PCs when they are being surprised is that it is fun for players to roll perception and it allows for the rare randomness of the non-perceptive PC to roll higher than the super perceptive PC once in a while.</blockquote>

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