Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 6829316" data-attributes="member: 97077">I guess it depends on what your goal is with keeping things subtle or secret. Some DMs have concerns about "metagaming," wherein players are aware of a check being made or see a low check result coupled with the DM desecribing nothing, and act as if something is up. For example, a player has described his or her character as searching for traps in the hallway, the DM calls for a Wisdom (Perception) check, the player gets a low result, and the DM says "You find no traps." The player then suggests someone else search or takes additional precautions because the fact that there was a check might indicate there is indeed a trap present in the hallway.I would suggest that it's the way the DM is narrating the result that is causing the issue. By narrating the result as being progress combined with a setback or success at a cost, you can describe the failed Wisdom (Perception) check above as the character stepping on a pressure plate during the search (if that is fictionally reasonable) and potentially setting the trap in motion. The player gets what he or she wanted - to find the trap - but the failed check means it didn't turn out exactly as planned. "Metagaming" has been avoided here by the DM's deft description which moves the scene forward and sets up an interesting dramatic situation.Yes, that's a use for it, but I would suggest thinking about passive checks in a different way. That is, as the resolution mechanic for a fictional act with an uncertain outcome that is undertaken repeatedly on an ongoing basis. "Passive" refers to the fact that there are no checks, after all, not that the characters are not actively doing something. So if the characters are exploring a dungeon, you can ask them what each of them are generally doing as they go about their business. Activities might include (but aren't limited to) keeping alert for danger, tracking, drawing a map, navigating, searching for secret doors, trying to deduce the meaning of the ubiquitous wall carvings, or what have you. If you're doing one of these things, you're not doing something else. The trade-off keeps the meaningful decision in play versus in how you built your character. If any of those things has an uncertain outcome, you can do a passive check by comparing the PC's passive scores to the DC and determine an outcome.I would pass this through the lens of whether the PCs were performing the task repeatedly. Doing research during downtime might qualify, for example. Generally this is something I use a regular ability check for, however. A successful check means getting all the information they need; a failed check means getting some information they need. I try not to have any result mean "You don't know..." or "Nothing happens..."At my table, players do not ask to make ability checks, passive or otherwise. They just say what they are doing fictionally and I tell them if a check is required. In the case of passive Insight, this would come into play in an extended social interaction scene where the PC's primary activity is trying to suss out lies or hidden motivations. For example, the character is mingling at the gathering of nobles and trying to figure out which one likely to be a spy for Lord Evil. Your bard with the passive Insight of 20 would be great at this task; however, I think it's important to make it a trade-off as above. While the bard is trying to figure out who the spy is, he or she can't impress potential patrons with musical instruments or other performances.As [MENTION=18333]Rhenny[/MENTION] suggests above, you offer a pithy description of the scene that telegraphs potential clues and threats. Then you ask the players "What do you do?" It's on them to explore and investigate further. If what they want to do has an uncertain outcome (the DM decides this), then call for an appropriate ability check (or a passive check if the task is being performed repeatedly) to resolve the uncertainty. Remember to keep in mind the stakes of the roll, that is, what happens when the check succeeds and what happens when the check fails. Make sure both are interesting and help move the scene forward in the some way.</blockquote>

Verification