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Passive vs Active Perception...
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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 7329538" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>Is your concern that it is too easy for a Stealthing creature to beat another creature's Passive Perception? And thus people who might get a chance to see the stealthers because they have "roll helping" dice abilities don't get to use them to help spot them?</p><p></p><p>If that's the case, then I can understand your issue... but I would actually say you don't need to <strong>remove</strong> Passive Perception, you can just <em>add onto it</em>. The way I've always read how it's supposed to work (and indeed, Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice says this is how it's supposed to be done)... is that all creatures have Passive Perception up all the time. But all this does is essentially give a floor to the hiding creatures that they HAVE to beat with their Dexterity (Stleath) checks to even be considered to be hiding. If you roll your Dexterity (Stealth) check and get a '7'... you're pretty much seen by everybody. You did a horrible job hiding. Your butt's probably sticking out, or the bush you are behind keeps jiggling back and forth, etc. But if you roll higher on your check... say maybe a '13'... then some of the other creatures might still notice you due to higher PPs, but others might not. Were you to jump up and start combat at that point... you and the folks with a PP 13 or higher would get to act, but the others would not. They were Surprised and did not get to act in that first round.</p><p></p><p>But... there is also no rule that says creatures can't make Active Perception checks too... in addition to their "always on" Passive Perception. This is where you as the DM have to interpret what the characters are doing as they move around, and whether some are "keeping watch" while others are doing other things (like keeping a map of the travel, or foraging for food, or searching for traps and so forth). Those creatures who are using their time while they move to "keep watch"... you can allow them to make Active Perception checks <em>too</em>, in order to possibly notice the hidden targets. And all that's really important is whether that creature rolls ABOVE a '10' on their Active Perception d20 die-- because their Passive Perception of 10 + WIS + prof bonus (if applicable) <em>still counts</em> even if they make an Active roll. So if their Active Perception check rolled a '4', it doesn't matter... because that creature still has their Passive Perception number to fall back on. The Active check is there just to see if the creature can get ABOVE their already-established Passive Perception check, in order to hopefully find those creatures whose Dexterity (Stealth) check was higher than it.</p><p></p><p>This is what was clarified by Sage Advice-- if someone is hidden, everyone in the area who might notice that creature checks their Passive Perception number first. If anyone's PP is higher than the Stealth check, then those specific creatures see the hidden target and are not Surprised (and would get to act in the first round should combat begin). If their PPs are lower, they don't get to notice the hidden target and wouldn't get to act in the first round... but the DM <em>can</em> allow some of those creatures to make Active Perception checks if they weren't already doing some other activity and said they were keeping an eye out. And if any of those Active checks are also higher than the Stealth check, then those creatures sees the hidden target too and are not Surprised (and can also act in the first round.)</p><p></p><p>It's the PCs that have low Passive Perception and who tend to do other activities while they move that usually end up Surprised and can't act in the first round of combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 7329538, member: 7006"] Is your concern that it is too easy for a Stealthing creature to beat another creature's Passive Perception? And thus people who might get a chance to see the stealthers because they have "roll helping" dice abilities don't get to use them to help spot them? If that's the case, then I can understand your issue... but I would actually say you don't need to [B]remove[/B] Passive Perception, you can just [I]add onto it[/I]. The way I've always read how it's supposed to work (and indeed, Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice says this is how it's supposed to be done)... is that all creatures have Passive Perception up all the time. But all this does is essentially give a floor to the hiding creatures that they HAVE to beat with their Dexterity (Stleath) checks to even be considered to be hiding. If you roll your Dexterity (Stealth) check and get a '7'... you're pretty much seen by everybody. You did a horrible job hiding. Your butt's probably sticking out, or the bush you are behind keeps jiggling back and forth, etc. But if you roll higher on your check... say maybe a '13'... then some of the other creatures might still notice you due to higher PPs, but others might not. Were you to jump up and start combat at that point... you and the folks with a PP 13 or higher would get to act, but the others would not. They were Surprised and did not get to act in that first round. But... there is also no rule that says creatures can't make Active Perception checks too... in addition to their "always on" Passive Perception. This is where you as the DM have to interpret what the characters are doing as they move around, and whether some are "keeping watch" while others are doing other things (like keeping a map of the travel, or foraging for food, or searching for traps and so forth). Those creatures who are using their time while they move to "keep watch"... you can allow them to make Active Perception checks [I]too[/I], in order to possibly notice the hidden targets. And all that's really important is whether that creature rolls ABOVE a '10' on their Active Perception d20 die-- because their Passive Perception of 10 + WIS + prof bonus (if applicable) [I]still counts[/I] even if they make an Active roll. So if their Active Perception check rolled a '4', it doesn't matter... because that creature still has their Passive Perception number to fall back on. The Active check is there just to see if the creature can get ABOVE their already-established Passive Perception check, in order to hopefully find those creatures whose Dexterity (Stealth) check was higher than it. This is what was clarified by Sage Advice-- if someone is hidden, everyone in the area who might notice that creature checks their Passive Perception number first. If anyone's PP is higher than the Stealth check, then those specific creatures see the hidden target and are not Surprised (and would get to act in the first round should combat begin). If their PPs are lower, they don't get to notice the hidden target and wouldn't get to act in the first round... but the DM [I]can[/I] allow some of those creatures to make Active Perception checks if they weren't already doing some other activity and said they were keeping an eye out. And if any of those Active checks are also higher than the Stealth check, then those creatures sees the hidden target too and are not Surprised (and can also act in the first round.) It's the PCs that have low Passive Perception and who tend to do other activities while they move that usually end up Surprised and can't act in the first round of combat. [/QUOTE]
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