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<blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8238205" data-attributes="member: 6778210"><p>I mean, it's really not that long. It's like several in the GMG, where they were clearly trying to push the limits of what you can do as examples of how to do things with the system. Not all of them are good, but that's fine, because they are examples meant to inspire.</p><p></p><p>And you're literally using the one that I specifically said I disliked, so it's not like I think all these are great. But acting like this is a flaw of the system comes off as desperately trying to find a problem that isn't there. It's showing what can be done in the system, not the system itself. That every trap doesn't land doesn't mean the system is fatally flawed, but rather certain things just aren't as well-built as others. Stop trying to extrapolate a few things into something bigger.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm assuming you're talking about <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=48" target="_blank">Dance of Death</a>, so let's go over these.</p><p></p><p>A) Doesn't really use a skill, so that just comes off as a panic answer. Of course that doesn't work.</p><p>B) I find it kind of silly, but I also kind of love it? Being so intimidating that you stop a spectral trap is the sort of coolness I want. This is basically A) with style, and I actually <em>like </em>it. I'd let this sort of thing succeed in D&D, too, as a sort of legendary "<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9HwOM90buY" target="_blank">TURN OUT THOSE LIGHTS!</a>"</p><p>C) This technically could work within the actual rules, but I guess you didn't read the trap closely enough to realize it. It's an auditory effect and specifically says that you need to hear it to actually be affected by it. This gives a lot of ways around it that aren't specifically listed in the Hazard itself.</p><p>D) <strong><em>Hell </em></strong><em><strong>yes</strong></em>. Of <em><strong>course </strong></em>the bard could rock out and do this. In fact, they already have powers that would work in this situation beyond this (Again, I'll get to it in a minute). But being so awesome at your lute that playing it disrupts an spectral orchestra's deadly tune? What kind of game do you think we're playing?!</p><p>E) Worth a shot, but obviously not everything should be able to be hit. It's not bad to have a player make a good guess but fail.</p><p>F) Yes, of course. Why shouldn't prayers exorcise spirits? This is like, something I actually <em>like</em>, and gives interesting ideas for the Religion skill..</p><p>G) It's not <em><strong>magic, </strong></em>though, so of course this doesn't work. It's spiritual, which is why prayers work. Are you the kind of guy who asks why the Wizard doesn't get "Turn Undead"?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First off, only three is <em>not correct</em>. You <em>could</em> potentially run away depending on how things are structured. That's explicitly part of the trap, if you actually read the entire thing.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, two of the three choices are obvious: using Religion against spirits and fighting music with music. I don't see how you couldn't at least get those two. I like that there is a third, less obvious option, even if it's kind of wacky; why not let people use skills and succeed with non-obvious solutions? This is why I don't like the Betrayal: that has two solutions, and the second one is completely not obvious. I get using Occultism against a mind effect because that's part of what Occultism <em>is, </em>but the Deception one is too clever by half.</p><p></p><p>Further, there are other options that aren't stupid that you can use to minimize harm or help work around the trap. The Silence, especially the heightened version, nullifies the trap's effects since they are <em>auditory</em>. And a Bard's Counterperformance would also help give the party defense against its ill-effects. I'm sure there are other things that help against auditory effects, but I'm not going to page through the entire rulebook to find them.</p><p></p><p>I'd also say that the effect of that trap specifically is interesting because it can potentially give you time to plan things out or use your planning to get rid of the effects while you come up with a counter plan.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a bad argument. It makes more sense with Plummeting Doom, but that this deals directly with spirits should be the first hint that this is Religion and not Occultism. Not that a roll on Occultism couldn't give you anything, but I get why Occultism also doesn't solve the problem, either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Spirits mean religion, more generalized mental/psychic effects are Occult. I think Confounding Betrayal isn't particularly well-constructed, but at the same time I also grok why Occultism works for it while Religion doesn't. At the same time, the players not instantly knowing how something works isn't necessarily a problem, especially with this sort of Haunt that gives them time to potentially react and strategize. You picked the wrong Haunt if you want to argue with me on this one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I just told you. There are certain Haunts they tried to use as examples that don't work well, but this one? I get this one instantly. It's easily grokked because it works into easy, well-known conceits of the setting and the genre itself. Plus I like the tertiary solution for being goofy. It also gives you time to be wrong without instantly wrecking you because of it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Justice and Rule, post: 8238205, member: 6778210"] I mean, it's really not that long. It's like several in the GMG, where they were clearly trying to push the limits of what you can do as examples of how to do things with the system. Not all of them are good, but that's fine, because they are examples meant to inspire. And you're literally using the one that I specifically said I disliked, so it's not like I think all these are great. But acting like this is a flaw of the system comes off as desperately trying to find a problem that isn't there. It's showing what can be done in the system, not the system itself. That every trap doesn't land doesn't mean the system is fatally flawed, but rather certain things just aren't as well-built as others. Stop trying to extrapolate a few things into something bigger. I'm assuming you're talking about [URL='https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=48']Dance of Death[/URL], so let's go over these. A) Doesn't really use a skill, so that just comes off as a panic answer. Of course that doesn't work. B) I find it kind of silly, but I also kind of love it? Being so intimidating that you stop a spectral trap is the sort of coolness I want. This is basically A) with style, and I actually [I]like [/I]it. I'd let this sort of thing succeed in D&D, too, as a sort of legendary "[URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9HwOM90buY']TURN OUT THOSE LIGHTS![/URL]" C) This technically could work within the actual rules, but I guess you didn't read the trap closely enough to realize it. It's an auditory effect and specifically says that you need to hear it to actually be affected by it. This gives a lot of ways around it that aren't specifically listed in the Hazard itself. D) [B][I]Hell [/I][/B][I][B]yes[/B][/I]. Of [I][B]course [/B][/I]the bard could rock out and do this. In fact, they already have powers that would work in this situation beyond this (Again, I'll get to it in a minute). But being so awesome at your lute that playing it disrupts an spectral orchestra's deadly tune? What kind of game do you think we're playing?! E) Worth a shot, but obviously not everything should be able to be hit. It's not bad to have a player make a good guess but fail. F) Yes, of course. Why shouldn't prayers exorcise spirits? This is like, something I actually [I]like[/I], and gives interesting ideas for the Religion skill.. G) It's not [I][B]magic, [/B][/I]though, so of course this doesn't work. It's spiritual, which is why prayers work. Are you the kind of guy who asks why the Wizard doesn't get "Turn Undead"? First off, only three is [I]not correct[/I]. You [I]could[/I] potentially run away depending on how things are structured. That's explicitly part of the trap, if you actually read the entire thing. Secondly, two of the three choices are obvious: using Religion against spirits and fighting music with music. I don't see how you couldn't at least get those two. I like that there is a third, less obvious option, even if it's kind of wacky; why not let people use skills and succeed with non-obvious solutions? This is why I don't like the Betrayal: that has two solutions, and the second one is completely not obvious. I get using Occultism against a mind effect because that's part of what Occultism [I]is, [/I]but the Deception one is too clever by half. Further, there are other options that aren't stupid that you can use to minimize harm or help work around the trap. The Silence, especially the heightened version, nullifies the trap's effects since they are [I]auditory[/I]. And a Bard's Counterperformance would also help give the party defense against its ill-effects. I'm sure there are other things that help against auditory effects, but I'm not going to page through the entire rulebook to find them. I'd also say that the effect of that trap specifically is interesting because it can potentially give you time to plan things out or use your planning to get rid of the effects while you come up with a counter plan. This is a bad argument. It makes more sense with Plummeting Doom, but that this deals directly with spirits should be the first hint that this is Religion and not Occultism. Not that a roll on Occultism couldn't give you anything, but I get why Occultism also doesn't solve the problem, either. Spirits mean religion, more generalized mental/psychic effects are Occult. I think Confounding Betrayal isn't particularly well-constructed, but at the same time I also grok why Occultism works for it while Religion doesn't. At the same time, the players not instantly knowing how something works isn't necessarily a problem, especially with this sort of Haunt that gives them time to potentially react and strategize. You picked the wrong Haunt if you want to argue with me on this one. I just told you. There are certain Haunts they tried to use as examples that don't work well, but this one? I get this one instantly. It's easily grokked because it works into easy, well-known conceits of the setting and the genre itself. Plus I like the tertiary solution for being goofy. It also gives you time to be wrong without instantly wrecking you because of it. [/QUOTE]
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