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<blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8238669" data-attributes="member: 6778210"><p>Actually, the Occultism entry is a little deceiving. While they include knowledge of spirits under Occultism, they have knowledge of the Undead under Religion, and spirits basically fall under the Undead umbrella. Just look at the entries under <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=149" target="_blank">Spirits</a> here and click one: you'll see knowledge checks for knowledge for <em>both </em>Occultism and Religion. And that makes sense: the areas overlap a bit, and thus both sides would have knowledge of these thing. Given the differences between the two skills, there's plenty they give separately to give them value.</p><p></p><p>So yeah, there's reason to assume that Religion would be a solution: Religion deals with the Undead, which cover spirits. Given that divine power also works on Golarion, actual prayer can expel minor spirits such as haunts as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I... I get this and don't disagree with the reasoning, but at the same time I'm actually for getting away from being able to whack things with spells and swords. At a certain level I can explain it away as haunts being so much more spectral that they are less effected by what works in the physical world but are more effected by the Divine. And given that something like Turn Undead is an aspect of being damage by a Heal spell, it creates different metaphysics that were previously there.</p><p></p><p>So I can't deny that they break the classic metaphysical ideas of Undead in D&D, but that's why I think I like them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, I'm the guy who explicitly wrote out what skills could do in 5E so that my players would start using them, so signposting isn't a problem for me. Are you a skills challenge guy or not? Maybe that's the thing here, because I think I'm more on the side of trying to use skills in abstract ways like skill challenges kind of want you to, even if I'm not sure that's the best way to do that sort of thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I dunno, you can have wards that aren't necessarily magical that work on skill checks, but they are limited in scope.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. Not that you couldn't do it as a VP encounter, but I don't think most VP systems deal with damage or are necessarily meant to be active in the same way. In this case, they wanted spectral stuff that caused damage, which fits with building a Hazard. I think it was [USER=7026314]@!DWolf[/USER] who structured some of their infiltration stuff as Hazards, or at least one time where the guards raised the alarm and started shooting, and I see this as a similar usage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Justice and Rule, post: 8238669, member: 6778210"] Actually, the Occultism entry is a little deceiving. While they include knowledge of spirits under Occultism, they have knowledge of the Undead under Religion, and spirits basically fall under the Undead umbrella. Just look at the entries under [URL='https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=149']Spirits[/URL] here and click one: you'll see knowledge checks for knowledge for [I]both [/I]Occultism and Religion. And that makes sense: the areas overlap a bit, and thus both sides would have knowledge of these thing. Given the differences between the two skills, there's plenty they give separately to give them value. So yeah, there's reason to assume that Religion would be a solution: Religion deals with the Undead, which cover spirits. Given that divine power also works on Golarion, actual prayer can expel minor spirits such as haunts as well. I... I get this and don't disagree with the reasoning, but at the same time I'm actually for getting away from being able to whack things with spells and swords. At a certain level I can explain it away as haunts being so much more spectral that they are less effected by what works in the physical world but are more effected by the Divine. And given that something like Turn Undead is an aspect of being damage by a Heal spell, it creates different metaphysics that were previously there. So I can't deny that they break the classic metaphysical ideas of Undead in D&D, but that's why I think I like them. I mean, I'm the guy who explicitly wrote out what skills could do in 5E so that my players would start using them, so signposting isn't a problem for me. Are you a skills challenge guy or not? Maybe that's the thing here, because I think I'm more on the side of trying to use skills in abstract ways like skill challenges kind of want you to, even if I'm not sure that's the best way to do that sort of thing. I dunno, you can have wards that aren't necessarily magical that work on skill checks, but they are limited in scope. I disagree. Not that you couldn't do it as a VP encounter, but I don't think most VP systems deal with damage or are necessarily meant to be active in the same way. In this case, they wanted spectral stuff that caused damage, which fits with building a Hazard. I think it was [USER=7026314]@!DWolf[/USER] who structured some of their infiltration stuff as Hazards, or at least one time where the guards raised the alarm and started shooting, and I see this as a similar usage. [/QUOTE]
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