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<blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8239050" data-attributes="member: 6778210"><p>This response doesn't really make sense. Of <em>course </em>you have to successfully detect a Haunt to know exactly how to disable it; do you ask the same of traps? But even without identifying a Haunt, most Haunts are weak to usages of the Religion skill in the form of prayers and exorcisms, just like most traps are able to be disabled through Thievery and most natural hazards are avoidable through Survival. This whole thing just doesn't make</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The flag is finding out that you're dealing with a Haunt, which should be done through investigation, which is why I said I liked it. It makes you not sure of how you are going to deal with something rather than being able to immediately identify what is causing the problem, which is a problem in D&D-related games: players being so familiar with the bestiary that they can immediately identify what is causing a problem. This forces even experienced players to have doubts about what might be causing a problem and force investigation.</p><p></p><p>And the reasons are easy to concoct. My immediate thought was undeath is a spectrum, where the closer you are to the spirit world the less physical manifestations can act on you but also the less autonomy you have and more divine prayer can actually affect you. Heck, even zombies have more autonomy than Haunts, which are trapped in automated repetition.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm sorry, you can't make this argument and then try pulling the previous argument of "D&D is a game where you can solve pretty much anything with striking". It's not more "gamist" to suddenly need to use skills to solve a problem that you thought you could hit.</p><p></p><p>The "THEY DON'T TELL YOU THIS" thing is weak, given that the Survival Skill doesn't say that it is used in most Environmental hazards, but it's obvious that it would. That the Religion skill can deal with certain manifestations of spirits is pretty easy to grok and acting like this is some incredible game design flaw is inane, no matter how much text you try to hide it in.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For starters, you roll Occultism because it specifically denotes that it deals with Spirits, just as Religion deals with Undead. Arcana wouldn't work because that doesn't really cover those areas. And really this argument comes off less about Haunts and more as a weird argument against skill checks <em>in general</em>: if you just "Roll Occultism", I have no clue what you are actually doing, any more than if you roll Athletics. If you say "I roll Occultism to do something" I ask "What?" The simple argument is that, when using a skill, if you can't describe what you want to do you can't roll the check.</p><p></p><p>To write an easy example of how I could see a Haunt going down without getting particularly specific:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see why that situation is particularly <em>gamist </em>unless you make it as such, and that's on <em>you</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, when you post how much you dislike a system all over the board, it's hard to avoid your presence. The easiest thing would be for you to stop talking about something you actively dislike, rather than continually inflicting it on others.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Noooooo, when you operate in bad faith and find a need to hostilely threadcrap a system constantly, you can hit a person with that. [USER=6801252]@The-Magic-Sword[/USER] is absolutely right about your behavior. It's why people here are starting to get fed up with you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, we went over this and the last time we did we thoroughly argued against it, and you basically dismissed our arguments and went on to claim validation and victory over it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Justice and Rule, post: 8239050, member: 6778210"] This response doesn't really make sense. Of [I]course [/I]you have to successfully detect a Haunt to know exactly how to disable it; do you ask the same of traps? But even without identifying a Haunt, most Haunts are weak to usages of the Religion skill in the form of prayers and exorcisms, just like most traps are able to be disabled through Thievery and most natural hazards are avoidable through Survival. This whole thing just doesn't make The flag is finding out that you're dealing with a Haunt, which should be done through investigation, which is why I said I liked it. It makes you not sure of how you are going to deal with something rather than being able to immediately identify what is causing the problem, which is a problem in D&D-related games: players being so familiar with the bestiary that they can immediately identify what is causing a problem. This forces even experienced players to have doubts about what might be causing a problem and force investigation. And the reasons are easy to concoct. My immediate thought was undeath is a spectrum, where the closer you are to the spirit world the less physical manifestations can act on you but also the less autonomy you have and more divine prayer can actually affect you. Heck, even zombies have more autonomy than Haunts, which are trapped in automated repetition. I'm sorry, you can't make this argument and then try pulling the previous argument of "D&D is a game where you can solve pretty much anything with striking". It's not more "gamist" to suddenly need to use skills to solve a problem that you thought you could hit. The "THEY DON'T TELL YOU THIS" thing is weak, given that the Survival Skill doesn't say that it is used in most Environmental hazards, but it's obvious that it would. That the Religion skill can deal with certain manifestations of spirits is pretty easy to grok and acting like this is some incredible game design flaw is inane, no matter how much text you try to hide it in. For starters, you roll Occultism because it specifically denotes that it deals with Spirits, just as Religion deals with Undead. Arcana wouldn't work because that doesn't really cover those areas. And really this argument comes off less about Haunts and more as a weird argument against skill checks [I]in general[/I]: if you just "Roll Occultism", I have no clue what you are actually doing, any more than if you roll Athletics. If you say "I roll Occultism to do something" I ask "What?" The simple argument is that, when using a skill, if you can't describe what you want to do you can't roll the check. To write an easy example of how I could see a Haunt going down without getting particularly specific: I don't see why that situation is particularly [I]gamist [/I]unless you make it as such, and that's on [I]you[/I]. I mean, when you post how much you dislike a system all over the board, it's hard to avoid your presence. The easiest thing would be for you to stop talking about something you actively dislike, rather than continually inflicting it on others. Noooooo, when you operate in bad faith and find a need to hostilely threadcrap a system constantly, you can hit a person with that. [USER=6801252]@The-Magic-Sword[/USER] is absolutely right about your behavior. It's why people here are starting to get fed up with you. Yes, we went over this and the last time we did we thoroughly argued against it, and you basically dismissed our arguments and went on to claim validation and victory over it. [/QUOTE]
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