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Pathfinder 2 and the game Paizo should have made
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7816327" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Our interest in 4E was definitely killed by the time it took to resolve combats, and for that reason specifically.</p><p></p><p>In part it was that we focused on actually challenging fights - hard fights, where the players were motivated to really play well: use sound tactics and minmax the metagame of applying buffs and debuffs. 4E does this really well.</p><p></p><p>The reason for us doing that is that we quickly grew bored of the "easy" fights. Since combat resolution in 4E was markedly slower than in 3E (and in 5E) we did not want to spend the time killing off three goblins (bring out the battle mat, preparing the markers used for conditions etc).</p><p></p><p>Sure, easy combats take less time. But they also always end the same way. Just playing them out to see whether someone lost a healing surge or not is decidedly not our idea of "fun". Just going through the motions when you already know you are going to win weren't fun. In 5E (or OSR?) it's still a reasonable thing to do because it's over so quick.</p><p></p><p>So we realized we played 4E like it was a tactical skirmish board game. Our sesssions were dominated by The One Big Fight.</p><p></p><p>And so actual story and roleplaying suffered - suffered too much.</p><p></p><p>In the end, we stopped playing. Combat was fun, tactical and challenging but in the end analysis we all prefer to play tabletop roleplaying games over board games. And 4E combat was only fun when you went "all in".</p><p></p><p>In glaring contrast, 5E combats feel much more like how we want them to feel - like 3E combats.</p><p></p><p>Lesson learned: there is a definite ceiling on how involved you should make combat. 5E shows real design skill in the myriad ways it tries to speed up combat by bringing in new mechanisms.</p><p></p><p>So far, Pathfinder 2 feels much more like 3/5E than 4E, which is good, but it's still early days - too early to tell if this keeps being the case as we leave the lowest levels. At low levels, every fight is dangerous, and the conditions game is yet not overwhelming. Time will tell if combat bogs down once we hit level 5 or so (generally the point where D&D combat changes character).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7816327, member: 12731"] Our interest in 4E was definitely killed by the time it took to resolve combats, and for that reason specifically. In part it was that we focused on actually challenging fights - hard fights, where the players were motivated to really play well: use sound tactics and minmax the metagame of applying buffs and debuffs. 4E does this really well. The reason for us doing that is that we quickly grew bored of the "easy" fights. Since combat resolution in 4E was markedly slower than in 3E (and in 5E) we did not want to spend the time killing off three goblins (bring out the battle mat, preparing the markers used for conditions etc). Sure, easy combats take less time. But they also always end the same way. Just playing them out to see whether someone lost a healing surge or not is decidedly not our idea of "fun". Just going through the motions when you already know you are going to win weren't fun. In 5E (or OSR?) it's still a reasonable thing to do because it's over so quick. So we realized we played 4E like it was a tactical skirmish board game. Our sesssions were dominated by The One Big Fight. And so actual story and roleplaying suffered - suffered too much. In the end, we stopped playing. Combat was fun, tactical and challenging but in the end analysis we all prefer to play tabletop roleplaying games over board games. And 4E combat was only fun when you went "all in". In glaring contrast, 5E combats feel much more like how we want them to feel - like 3E combats. Lesson learned: there is a definite ceiling on how involved you should make combat. 5E shows real design skill in the myriad ways it tries to speed up combat by bringing in new mechanisms. So far, Pathfinder 2 feels much more like 3/5E than 4E, which is good, but it's still early days - too early to tell if this keeps being the case as we leave the lowest levels. At low levels, every fight is dangerous, and the conditions game is yet not overwhelming. Time will tell if combat bogs down once we hit level 5 or so (generally the point where D&D combat changes character). [/QUOTE]
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Pathfinder 2 and the game Paizo should have made
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