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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7846781" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Up to maybe twelve sessions, and the characters are level four (the sorcerer is level five). Combat speed remains slow - my players refuse for me to "wing it", they want to play "by the rules", and we're still finding/learning individual small rules at least in one combat each session. This mostly concerns rulings at the periphery of what the rules concern themselves with; the exceptional cases. Time scouring the rules is mostly spent to find out if there IS a rule for something, or if the GM is free to make an off-the-cuff ruling. After all, the hardest rule to find is the one not there at all.</p><p></p><p>PF2 sure is complex, but crucially also a very decentralized ruleset. Before you can "just say yes" you ideally need to learn by heart every single one of the thousand feats, since if let's say you call for an Acrobatics check like you might in 5E, you might later find out that there's a level 7 or 17 feat that let's you do it with... an Acrobatics check. Thus you have inadvertently shortchanged a feat you did not know existed.</p><p></p><p>PF2 would have played much quicker with a group that were able to be... less anal?.. about details; a group that accepted that just because Xena the Barbarian was allowed to do this thing once using a simple save or check, doesn't mean she is allowed to do it ten sessions and levels later, when Gabrielle the Bard has picked up That Feat that specifically lets her do it in a certain way. </p><p></p><p>Thankfully we're playing on Sundays. Spending half an hour, forty-five minutes resolving a situation feels less bad with eight-hour play sessions.</p><p></p><p>PS. Examples:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">How much movement is spent by moving through an ally's space diagonally after already moving two squares diagonally?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If a foe downs you, I assume he can step into your space? What are your options when you're healed back up to consciousness - I'm assuming you can't stand up from underneath a foe?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When, exactly, can you make a Recall Knowledge check on a monster you have not met? Is it enough to know of its existence? Find its trail?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">How do you move a fallen ally out of harm's way if he weighs more than your max Bulk (Strength + 10)?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What happens if you attempt to tumble through the squares of two enemies standing next to each other, and fail the second attempt?</li> </ul><p></p><p>The point of these examples are to ask you - are you absolutely sure you're supposed to allow the character to resolve the situation a certain way even without "that feat"? (=That you are wrong to allow it without that feat)</p><p></p><p>In all these examples, the only way to make sure it's appropriate to make a GM call is to first ensure the rules remain silent on the issue, and the only way to ensure this is to make a text search on the term or terms involved. For example, to find each and every mention of "recall knowledge", including feats. Only then can you summarize the "body of rules" to decide whether they have a say on your specific situation: is there a RAW answer or a RAI answer (where you judge one rule can be used in a different context) or if a houserule is warranted, or if a GM call (that might later be forgotten and/or changed) is best.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7846781, member: 12731"] Up to maybe twelve sessions, and the characters are level four (the sorcerer is level five). Combat speed remains slow - my players refuse for me to "wing it", they want to play "by the rules", and we're still finding/learning individual small rules at least in one combat each session. This mostly concerns rulings at the periphery of what the rules concern themselves with; the exceptional cases. Time scouring the rules is mostly spent to find out if there IS a rule for something, or if the GM is free to make an off-the-cuff ruling. After all, the hardest rule to find is the one not there at all. PF2 sure is complex, but crucially also a very decentralized ruleset. Before you can "just say yes" you ideally need to learn by heart every single one of the thousand feats, since if let's say you call for an Acrobatics check like you might in 5E, you might later find out that there's a level 7 or 17 feat that let's you do it with... an Acrobatics check. Thus you have inadvertently shortchanged a feat you did not know existed. PF2 would have played much quicker with a group that were able to be... less anal?.. about details; a group that accepted that just because Xena the Barbarian was allowed to do this thing once using a simple save or check, doesn't mean she is allowed to do it ten sessions and levels later, when Gabrielle the Bard has picked up That Feat that specifically lets her do it in a certain way. Thankfully we're playing on Sundays. Spending half an hour, forty-five minutes resolving a situation feels less bad with eight-hour play sessions. PS. Examples: [LIST] [*]How much movement is spent by moving through an ally's space diagonally after already moving two squares diagonally? [*]If a foe downs you, I assume he can step into your space? What are your options when you're healed back up to consciousness - I'm assuming you can't stand up from underneath a foe? [*]When, exactly, can you make a Recall Knowledge check on a monster you have not met? Is it enough to know of its existence? Find its trail? [*]How do you move a fallen ally out of harm's way if he weighs more than your max Bulk (Strength + 10)? [*]What happens if you attempt to tumble through the squares of two enemies standing next to each other, and fail the second attempt? [/LIST] The point of these examples are to ask you - are you absolutely sure you're supposed to allow the character to resolve the situation a certain way even without "that feat"? (=That you are wrong to allow it without that feat) In all these examples, the only way to make sure it's appropriate to make a GM call is to first ensure the rules remain silent on the issue, and the only way to ensure this is to make a text search on the term or terms involved. For example, to find each and every mention of "recall knowledge", including feats. Only then can you summarize the "body of rules" to decide whether they have a say on your specific situation: is there a RAW answer or a RAI answer (where you judge one rule can be used in a different context) or if a houserule is warranted, or if a GM call (that might later be forgotten and/or changed) is best. [/QUOTE]
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