Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pathfinder 2e: Actual Play Experience
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 8007052" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>They design plenty of encounters for overcoming social interactions without using Diplomacy. For example, in a module in an AP you use skills like crafting to do the equivalent of Make an Impression. The idea being that in the given situation your expertise at crafting can substitute for Diplomacy for improving the social relationship with a given individual. This indicates to me that a DM or adventure creator can and should allow for alternative skill uses when it fits. You are not constrained by feats and the like to limit what can be done if an appropriate situation occurs.</p><p></p><p>Skill feats are more interested in player agency than DM limitations. As in a player who wants to be highly persuasive and Deceptive can build a character that can deal with practically any situation using Diplomacy or Deception. The DM cannot decide he can't. His player is built for it ensuring the player has some agency with a character build based on Deception and Diplomacy.</p><p></p><p>But a DM can also in a given situation allow a player to do something like Make an Impression or Create a Distraction using a different skill. If a player comes to him and says, "Can I do an extraordinary acting or comedy job that distracts the audience from paying attention while the rogue sneaks in the side door at a dinner party?" Does the DM say, "No. You don't have the right skill." I don't think that PF2 encourages the DM to do this. He might instead say this is an appropriate use of the skill given the environment, he would set a difficulty, then let the player do it. I have not read anywhere this is somehow against the rules.</p><p></p><p>And if a player says, "I want to be able to create a distraction with my performance skill all the time." The DM also has the skill feat framework to allow this as well. I'm pretty sure as they expand the skill feats you will see alternative uses of skills that allow players to maintain greater agency for skill use versus GM fiat.</p><p></p><p>So these attempts by certain people to make the rules seem like some absolute way to run the game are not supported in the adventures or in the rule book. It would be a choice by the DM to put those limitations in place, not something implied or written into the rule system.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah. That was the case in PF1 too. Those morph powers were never much used in PF1 either. It just never made sense for the +10 BAB class to enter melee combat when he had other far better options. It conceptually cool and might work with some hybrid fighter or druid sorcerer. It's never much been a good plan for a cloth caster with low hit points to get in melee. I can't even consider this a PF2 issue as it was an issue in PF1 as well. Morph traits are one of those concepts designers make that look cool in their mind, but are terribly implemented as anything other than a visual affectation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 8007052, member: 5834"] They design plenty of encounters for overcoming social interactions without using Diplomacy. For example, in a module in an AP you use skills like crafting to do the equivalent of Make an Impression. The idea being that in the given situation your expertise at crafting can substitute for Diplomacy for improving the social relationship with a given individual. This indicates to me that a DM or adventure creator can and should allow for alternative skill uses when it fits. You are not constrained by feats and the like to limit what can be done if an appropriate situation occurs. Skill feats are more interested in player agency than DM limitations. As in a player who wants to be highly persuasive and Deceptive can build a character that can deal with practically any situation using Diplomacy or Deception. The DM cannot decide he can't. His player is built for it ensuring the player has some agency with a character build based on Deception and Diplomacy. But a DM can also in a given situation allow a player to do something like Make an Impression or Create a Distraction using a different skill. If a player comes to him and says, "Can I do an extraordinary acting or comedy job that distracts the audience from paying attention while the rogue sneaks in the side door at a dinner party?" Does the DM say, "No. You don't have the right skill." I don't think that PF2 encourages the DM to do this. He might instead say this is an appropriate use of the skill given the environment, he would set a difficulty, then let the player do it. I have not read anywhere this is somehow against the rules. And if a player says, "I want to be able to create a distraction with my performance skill all the time." The DM also has the skill feat framework to allow this as well. I'm pretty sure as they expand the skill feats you will see alternative uses of skills that allow players to maintain greater agency for skill use versus GM fiat. So these attempts by certain people to make the rules seem like some absolute way to run the game are not supported in the adventures or in the rule book. It would be a choice by the DM to put those limitations in place, not something implied or written into the rule system. Yeah. That was the case in PF1 too. Those morph powers were never much used in PF1 either. It just never made sense for the +10 BAB class to enter melee combat when he had other far better options. It conceptually cool and might work with some hybrid fighter or druid sorcerer. It's never much been a good plan for a cloth caster with low hit points to get in melee. I can't even consider this a PF2 issue as it was an issue in PF1 as well. Morph traits are one of those concepts designers make that look cool in their mind, but are terribly implemented as anything other than a visual affectation. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pathfinder 2e: Actual Play Experience
Top