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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 8410619" data-attributes="member: 6778210">lolTrue, I'm an experienced hand, but I'm talking about a lot of recommendation and helping people learn both systems. I've helped teach well over a dozen people 5E, while PF2 I've had 2 people. There's a big disparity there, but part of that is I came into PF2 right around the pandemic, and also I've been helping people with 5E since it's inception. So while I'm obviously experienced, I'm trying to reference these experiences. A good portion are late-teens, many with little experience in the area outside maybe playing a few games (but never really looking at the material closely).There are a bunch of monsters that punch above their weight class, or are balanced against extreme save versus suck results. I've gotten an earful about both Intellect Devourers (who appear in a notable recent adventure and can one-shot characters pretty easily) and Banshees (which are relatively low-level but also have a power that can absolutely destroy a party on a few bad rolls). Also heard complaints about ghouls, largely because being paralyzed in 5E means you get auto-critted (which is death at a low-level), but at this point I feel like complaining about Ghouls is practically a D&D tradition.Further, while it can get forgiving later on, the first few levels are not, which is why having an accurate CR is valuable. I feel like a good portion of the people I handed things off to had big party-kill moments early on. But yes, the complaint of being "too easy" is something that happens until they run into one of those land-mine monsters, and because the CR is wonky they generally have laid down more of them than they need to: if you are used to your players trouncing your targets, you put more in, which is bad when one your monsters ends up actually having something that can make them situationally very tough.More than that, the trap options of 5E are just terrible. S*** like Rangers, Fighters, and certain subclasses just being boring and/or terrible are something I have been warning people about for a while. Stuff like "How much should a magic weapon cost?" or "How do you make things?" are really common ones, because there's a dearth of guidance on it despite having these skills. You just have to work to fix basic things in 5E that I keep telling people to switch over because it's not worth trying to fix it.I feel like most of these complaints could easily be leveled at 5E. You don't need Medicine in 5E, but you do need a magical healer, and not having a good dedicated healer is definitely a pitfall in early levels (I've lived that one, where I was a paladin in a 3-person party and we almost TPK'd on two skeleton archers due to a few bad rolls). Focus fire and party splitting? Can absolutely be a problem in 5E, and the latter especially given that if you split up and get hit in the wrong saves you can get utterly trashed since most of your saves don't level up. And I'm going to straight-up disagree on the stat 16 thing, which I want to say has been discussed before.Honestly I feel like modern APs are not good for modern gaming. I remember playing the opening to Horde of the Dragon Queen and I have no idea how the hell that even made it out of beta. Mines of Phandelvar wasn't bad, but definitely suffers from "Killer low levels" that 5E is particularly rough with. That goblin hideout can absolutely be rough if things don't go right, especially given that bugbears hit like a Mack trucker for low-level characters.Maybe. The two people I've gotten into PF2 haven't complained to me, or at least haven't complained to me about the same stuff people here complain about. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /></blockquote>

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