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Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?
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<blockquote data-quote="Retreater" data-source="post: 8411813" data-attributes="member: 42040"><p>Yes, that was a big departure in his appraisal of the system. In his comparison between 5e and PF2 just a few months prior, he came down on the side of preferring PF2. </p><p>There are things that I really do like about the system, most of them in the theory-crafting and character-creation angle more than in actual play. For example, I loved ability score generation, how much an ancestry can shape your character, having backgrounds that greatly matter mechanically (compared to 5e). </p><p>I liked PF2 conceptionally so much that I decided to run it a second time with a new group after my first campaign fizzled. I like it enough even to get on these threads and debate it - which may come across as a negative viewpoint, but I'm doing it as a fan of gaming and a desire to see Paizo succeed with this system. I think there is enough good in PF2 that it could be salvaged and be honed into a fine competitor to 5e. </p><p></p><p>I have to admit, I never played Baldur's Gate, because I could never get it to run on a computer I had. I'm guessing it was a faithful reproduction of the mechanics of 2e or 3e? </p><p>Yes, I absolutely had TPKs in 3e (not so much in 2e). Usually those TPKs were because I ran brutally hard adventures and was playtesting (and writing) for a company known for extreme difficulty. One particularly nasty TPK I ran involved underwater Evard's Black Tentacles and a swarm of shadows draining Strength. Or creating fiendish hydras immune to acid and fire damage, so nothing could stop their regeneration. The TPKs that I have had in 3e or 5e was because I was a nasty DM. I pushed the encounters too hard. It wasn't because the system was designed to be that nasty. </p><p>In short, I had TPKs because I had broken the system, not because I was following the guidelines of the system.</p><p></p><p>If you like that, I'm glad. I think it is definitely stacked against the PCs. Feeling powerful against a minion, dropping a low HP goblin for example, doesn't matter as much when the boss monster drops a character in one round, taking that player out of the fun. Massive amounts of damage against lower challenge monsters is often wasted, but massive damage against a PC is not. You're looking at instantly being dropped to Dying 2 if you were hit by a Critical. </p><p>Big damage criticals are always worse to a PC, who is intended to live for many sessions and be the star of the show. A GM always has more fodder - we have bestiaries full of them. Players don't have that luxury, nor does a GM's campaign continuity. </p><p></p><p>I would argue that there's nothing a player can really do to mitigate this. You can spend an action to raise a shield to boost your AC. You can attempt to demoralize an opponent (on a single turn only - you can't use it more than once an encounter). You're looking at a handful of ways to increase your AC or lower your opponent's attack bonus. These are not sufficient when you are normally fighting opponents above you in level, which is the standard in Paizo's encounter design.</p><p>And then consider the characters - like casters - who don't have the action economy to do this. Move into position, 2-action cast, and that's all folks. </p><p>At least in Savage Worlds the intent of the game is that it's quick and brutal, and the players know it. Which brings me to the next point....</p><p></p><p>What is the feel of Pathfinder? Fast, furious action (like Savage Worlds)? Grim and perilous adventure (like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay)? Is it horror fiction like Call of Cthulhu or Alien? </p><p>The feel of Pathfinder is heroic fantasy. Paizo's business model depends on Adventure Paths, which encourage continuity in a massive, epic campaign usually spanning 20 levels. Having a stalwart hero dropping to dying after a single hit, bleeding out on the battlefield, always in danger of death doesn't capture this feel. If anything, it encourages players to separate from the fiction, viewing it like they would Dark Souls or another video game. </p><p>In my first PF2 campaign I had a player decide his character to be the heir of the citadel on Hellknight Hill. He got deeply into the mini-game of restoring the citadel, taking feats and skill ranks into things that would help him play out the fiction of restoring this citadel to its glory. </p><p>That character was dead in a handful of sessions (along with the rest of the party). Did any of the players make replacement characters with any ties to the story? Some tried, but after those characters also perished in a few encounters, they gave up on that. The game devolved into a party of murder hobos going from one combat scene to another. </p><p>The same thing ultimately happened in my Abomination Vaults game: a party of mercenaries traipsing through a dungeon from one fight to the next. </p><p>This is precisely what PF2's design encourages. It doesn't support immersion. It doesn't let you play out the fiction of being characters in a dynamic world, taking part in a story (other than "we faced great odds, half our party died").</p><p>If anything, if Paizo wanted to promote an AP-focused design, they should have used a flattened math to have more predictable battles with the support for big, climactic battles as a rare occurrence.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Retreater, post: 8411813, member: 42040"] Yes, that was a big departure in his appraisal of the system. In his comparison between 5e and PF2 just a few months prior, he came down on the side of preferring PF2. There are things that I really do like about the system, most of them in the theory-crafting and character-creation angle more than in actual play. For example, I loved ability score generation, how much an ancestry can shape your character, having backgrounds that greatly matter mechanically (compared to 5e). I liked PF2 conceptionally so much that I decided to run it a second time with a new group after my first campaign fizzled. I like it enough even to get on these threads and debate it - which may come across as a negative viewpoint, but I'm doing it as a fan of gaming and a desire to see Paizo succeed with this system. I think there is enough good in PF2 that it could be salvaged and be honed into a fine competitor to 5e. I have to admit, I never played Baldur's Gate, because I could never get it to run on a computer I had. I'm guessing it was a faithful reproduction of the mechanics of 2e or 3e? Yes, I absolutely had TPKs in 3e (not so much in 2e). Usually those TPKs were because I ran brutally hard adventures and was playtesting (and writing) for a company known for extreme difficulty. One particularly nasty TPK I ran involved underwater Evard's Black Tentacles and a swarm of shadows draining Strength. Or creating fiendish hydras immune to acid and fire damage, so nothing could stop their regeneration. The TPKs that I have had in 3e or 5e was because I was a nasty DM. I pushed the encounters too hard. It wasn't because the system was designed to be that nasty. In short, I had TPKs because I had broken the system, not because I was following the guidelines of the system. If you like that, I'm glad. I think it is definitely stacked against the PCs. Feeling powerful against a minion, dropping a low HP goblin for example, doesn't matter as much when the boss monster drops a character in one round, taking that player out of the fun. Massive amounts of damage against lower challenge monsters is often wasted, but massive damage against a PC is not. You're looking at instantly being dropped to Dying 2 if you were hit by a Critical. Big damage criticals are always worse to a PC, who is intended to live for many sessions and be the star of the show. A GM always has more fodder - we have bestiaries full of them. Players don't have that luxury, nor does a GM's campaign continuity. I would argue that there's nothing a player can really do to mitigate this. You can spend an action to raise a shield to boost your AC. You can attempt to demoralize an opponent (on a single turn only - you can't use it more than once an encounter). You're looking at a handful of ways to increase your AC or lower your opponent's attack bonus. These are not sufficient when you are normally fighting opponents above you in level, which is the standard in Paizo's encounter design. And then consider the characters - like casters - who don't have the action economy to do this. Move into position, 2-action cast, and that's all folks. At least in Savage Worlds the intent of the game is that it's quick and brutal, and the players know it. Which brings me to the next point.... What is the feel of Pathfinder? Fast, furious action (like Savage Worlds)? Grim and perilous adventure (like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay)? Is it horror fiction like Call of Cthulhu or Alien? The feel of Pathfinder is heroic fantasy. Paizo's business model depends on Adventure Paths, which encourage continuity in a massive, epic campaign usually spanning 20 levels. Having a stalwart hero dropping to dying after a single hit, bleeding out on the battlefield, always in danger of death doesn't capture this feel. If anything, it encourages players to separate from the fiction, viewing it like they would Dark Souls or another video game. In my first PF2 campaign I had a player decide his character to be the heir of the citadel on Hellknight Hill. He got deeply into the mini-game of restoring the citadel, taking feats and skill ranks into things that would help him play out the fiction of restoring this citadel to its glory. That character was dead in a handful of sessions (along with the rest of the party). Did any of the players make replacement characters with any ties to the story? Some tried, but after those characters also perished in a few encounters, they gave up on that. The game devolved into a party of murder hobos going from one combat scene to another. The same thing ultimately happened in my Abomination Vaults game: a party of mercenaries traipsing through a dungeon from one fight to the next. This is precisely what PF2's design encourages. It doesn't support immersion. It doesn't let you play out the fiction of being characters in a dynamic world, taking part in a story (other than "we faced great odds, half our party died"). If anything, if Paizo wanted to promote an AP-focused design, they should have used a flattened math to have more predictable battles with the support for big, climactic battles as a rare occurrence. [/QUOTE]
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Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?
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