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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kenada" data-source="post: 8917531" data-attributes="member: 70468">There is. The core of the system is pretty streamlined with few (if any) exceptions to the rules. It suffers for a few reasons:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It’s needlessly verbose. If one has both the Beginner Box and the Core Rulebook, compare rules that are in both. The rules in the BB are more concisely and clearly written. The stealth/vision explanation is much better. The CRB often goes into different rules as exceptions needlessly, and it’s afraid of its own information format. Craft is a notorious example of this problem, but weapon traits are arguably its close cousin.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It builds in layers. This is complicated by #1, but it’s also a conceptual problem. The action economy is simple. You just spend up to three actions in combat doing stuff. There are board games people play that do things like this, and PF2 should be that simple. However, reactions can trigger off of things, and traits can have an affect too. Even a trait that does nothing rule-wise like Concentrate can have an effect because actions may be limited by this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Some of the layers are not well-named. There are Deadly and Fatal weapon traits. They both affect critical hits but do different things. If PF2 is going to lean heavily on traits, they should be self-evident what they do or distinct enough not to cause confusion. I also think those that are just tags to be used by other traits should be clearly identified as such. Concentrate is a good example.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Some parts are just bad. The out of combat healing economy is pretty bad. You have to make a lot of rolls with a cost that I expect most groups just don’t worry about. Either something like the <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1378" target="_blank">Stamina variant</a> should have been the default, there should have been some other cost (e.g., it depletes a resource like WWN does with System Strain, it risks triggering some kind of event check in exploration mode), or the amount of healing should scale without having to sim it out through multiple checks (e.g., level 1 Trained does as written for success, but Level 4 Expert does twice that, no rolling). Crafting is another one, eschewing the standard format and really just another way to Earn Income.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">There is a lot of character customization. The customization is compartmentalized, so even if the system has a ton of feats, that’s like counting every invocation, knack, and other bit of customization altogether in 5e. However, you’re still going to be making a decision between some things every level, and that can be overwhelming to players (especially if they’re used to systems with poor or trap options, and they get analysis paralysis about what to pick) or disappointing to them (if they expect to win the game through character building before the session instead of skillful play during).</li> </ol>I would also add that the skill action economy (a personal dislike of mine, so not going in the list) makes things unnecessarily harder on the GM. Every skill action has its own sets of degrees of success, which makes internalizing all the things PCs can do more difficult. I never felt like I had a handle on it even after running PF2 for a year or so. While I’d like to have the <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1189" target="_blank">VP subsystem</a> there by default, I would also be fine with some kind of “basic skill check” like Paizo did for basic saving throws with standard results (so you don’t have every damage spell repeating the same degrees of success).</blockquote>

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