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<blockquote data-quote="wakedown" data-source="post: 7586527" data-attributes="member: 15901"><p>My sorcerer player just went through this during character creation.</p><p></p><p>In his 3e incarnation, his bloodline was Infernal, which he was able to realize with just the PF Core book as it shipped with 10 bloodlines. In 5e with just the PHB and Xanathar's available (twice as many books!) he only had 4 choices of "origins". He opted for the Variant Human to get a feat and was surprised at how few there were to choose from. He sat down at Session Zero feeling a bit empty as his character creation took under 60 minutes and that was with going over ALL of the available options for his first 3 levels.</p><p></p><p>There were other factors in the newer campaign - it was set in Oerth vs Golarion and it "went back to the roots" in how the game world operated - aka gone was the rush to obtain 750gp to buy a CLW wand. Once they started playing, they were hooked on 5e since it "felt more real" and "less like a game".</p><p></p><p>It's a bit hard to explain but part of this is due to the fact the players noses were less buried in HeroLab or their print-outs. They paid more attention to the random goblin attacker and spent more time trying to interact with "encounters" in non-combat ways. I want to say in 3e/PF they would have tried to slay twice as many monsters/encounters as they did in 5e. Something about 5e flipped a mental switch where instead of peppering 3 chained wolves with arrows they dug up some meat and tried to calm them instead. Or when the first BBEG pounced from the shadows they shouted "Parley!" instead of wanting to roll initiative.</p><p></p><p>I think the 3e/PF era favored players spending so much time "playing a game away from the game table" (that is the at-home character building side game) that when they finally sat down to play, their mindset was in stacking +1 or +2 riders to rolls as much as possible. With Advantage, they favor and are more creative at role-playing than roll-playing as their way of showing off prowess/system mastery to each other versus showcasing an esoteric feat/trait they found in countless hours of research.</p><p></p><p>The PF2e Playtest didn't really move away a ton from its PF1e roots in this regard. It's a subtle thing, but Page 130-131 of the Playtest (which shows the 6 sorcerer bloodlines) really sums it up. A player has to invest a lot of time parsing that page to build their sorcerer which carries baggage to the game table for that effort to pay back. Even in the Playtest's limited scope, the sorcerer needed to decide between 5 feats (Counterspell, Dangerous Sorcery, Familiar, Reach Spell and Widen Spell). There's a stress induced just deciding between these 5 options. Reach Spell? Is that something valuable? Are there spells I'd want to have more reach for and that would be a powerful choice? I need to go look at spells to see if this turns an average spell into something more powerful... except this adds a Somatic casting, but it's limited to spells that have a max of "two spellcasting actions". Head hurts. Dangerous Sorcerery, I can add a damage bonus to non-cantrips.. ah I was hoping this was for Cantrips since those are at-will, but is there some place good this applies? Familiar.. hmm maybe that's good, maybe I can use that to get more than 3 actions and have a better character that way...</p><p></p><p>I imagine the final product actually ships with more choices which means more character building/away-from-table time in their game. I'll admit I was very invested in the "character building" mini-game in my PFS days and it was fulfilling in its own unique way.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wakedown, post: 7586527, member: 15901"] My sorcerer player just went through this during character creation. In his 3e incarnation, his bloodline was Infernal, which he was able to realize with just the PF Core book as it shipped with 10 bloodlines. In 5e with just the PHB and Xanathar's available (twice as many books!) he only had 4 choices of "origins". He opted for the Variant Human to get a feat and was surprised at how few there were to choose from. He sat down at Session Zero feeling a bit empty as his character creation took under 60 minutes and that was with going over ALL of the available options for his first 3 levels. There were other factors in the newer campaign - it was set in Oerth vs Golarion and it "went back to the roots" in how the game world operated - aka gone was the rush to obtain 750gp to buy a CLW wand. Once they started playing, they were hooked on 5e since it "felt more real" and "less like a game". It's a bit hard to explain but part of this is due to the fact the players noses were less buried in HeroLab or their print-outs. They paid more attention to the random goblin attacker and spent more time trying to interact with "encounters" in non-combat ways. I want to say in 3e/PF they would have tried to slay twice as many monsters/encounters as they did in 5e. Something about 5e flipped a mental switch where instead of peppering 3 chained wolves with arrows they dug up some meat and tried to calm them instead. Or when the first BBEG pounced from the shadows they shouted "Parley!" instead of wanting to roll initiative. I think the 3e/PF era favored players spending so much time "playing a game away from the game table" (that is the at-home character building side game) that when they finally sat down to play, their mindset was in stacking +1 or +2 riders to rolls as much as possible. With Advantage, they favor and are more creative at role-playing than roll-playing as their way of showing off prowess/system mastery to each other versus showcasing an esoteric feat/trait they found in countless hours of research. The PF2e Playtest didn't really move away a ton from its PF1e roots in this regard. It's a subtle thing, but Page 130-131 of the Playtest (which shows the 6 sorcerer bloodlines) really sums it up. A player has to invest a lot of time parsing that page to build their sorcerer which carries baggage to the game table for that effort to pay back. Even in the Playtest's limited scope, the sorcerer needed to decide between 5 feats (Counterspell, Dangerous Sorcery, Familiar, Reach Spell and Widen Spell). There's a stress induced just deciding between these 5 options. Reach Spell? Is that something valuable? Are there spells I'd want to have more reach for and that would be a powerful choice? I need to go look at spells to see if this turns an average spell into something more powerful... except this adds a Somatic casting, but it's limited to spells that have a max of "two spellcasting actions". Head hurts. Dangerous Sorcerery, I can add a damage bonus to non-cantrips.. ah I was hoping this was for Cantrips since those are at-will, but is there some place good this applies? Familiar.. hmm maybe that's good, maybe I can use that to get more than 3 actions and have a better character that way... I imagine the final product actually ships with more choices which means more character building/away-from-table time in their game. I'll admit I was very invested in the "character building" mini-game in my PFS days and it was fulfilling in its own unique way. [/QUOTE]
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