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Pathfinder 2E's reception?
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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7897558" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>Heh So it seems that we agree on pretty much everything except our taste in game. And we absolutely disagree there.</p><p></p><p>So, to be blunt, I don't see any baby to save in 4E. (No offense) </p><p>I've never played 13th Age, but I have read it. It seems to take everything about 4E and go off the deep end with it. (No offense) As a semi-random example, I really like the broad concept of "failing forward", but that idea as described in 13A makes my eyeballs spin. </p><p></p><p>Seriously, I don't want to go into a deeper battle over taste vs. taste. I get it. It is cool. But I truly can't imagine playing that game even for a one shot. Life is too short.</p><p></p><p>And, the interesting thing to me is, people who love 13A always describe it as the game for story-tellers and people who want more narrative and less min maxing. I really have to stop myself and think slowly when I hear this. Because my knee-jerk reaction is to go on a rant. But, when I do step back I <em>think</em> I get it. 13A has "one cool thing" and all these other bits and pieces that push players into a role and reward that kind of playing and tend to push away from kick in the door and roll init gameplay. In short, it gets the mechanics out of the way of the story. When the mechanics are there, they make an effort to resolve whatever and get back out of focus.</p><p></p><p>I can certainly see that as narrative gaming. </p><p>But I'm coming from the opposite perspective. The 3X/PF system is wide open to min/max and powergaming. It will let you sabotage yourself to your hearts content. But, <em>IF</em> you are playing with a group that wants to tell a story and chooses to work with the system to realize a compelling story about a group of fantastic characters then the system really sings. Now, I'm good at running it. I have a current L9 PF game and a L15 game that is on pause due to life events for three different players. In both cases I generally have 2-3 pages of sessions prep notes, probably a few key monster stat blocks printed, a 1-page PC tracking sheet, and a grid pad I use for init and monster HP tracking. That is it.</p><p>The core book is generally within hands reach. But I am very hesitant to reach for it, and rarely find that I need to. I have had entire sessions where the party when off script in the first five minutes and I'm playing by ear. I love those sessions.</p><p>I realize not everyone can do this and my opinions are useless to them.</p><p></p><p>But, to me, I don't need a game that pushes players into a role. I don't need a game that gets the mechanics out of the way. And what I really want is a rewarding "simulation" game, where cause and effect play out based on looking at the narrative pieces and asking how things should interact. And to do that well requires a pretty heavy system. PF does it better than any other game I've ever played, so I'm happy with it. And, despite not having the 13A narrative focused mechanics, I still have 100% of the value of them because the people at the table bring that. 13A gives me something I already have at the price of taking away something I love.</p><p></p><p>Sorry if this ended up sounding confrontantional. It isn't my intent. I really do respect that my love of this solid cause and effect system comes with a price and isn't appealing to a lot of people. I completely repect that. Truly, I do. I'm just trying to express my personal view here and not calling it "right", I'm just calling it "mine".</p><p></p><p>Yeah, to me PF2E seems a lot "less bad" than 4E or 13A. But I think that is because it still does offer a lot of the fiddly bits. It just also throws in this foundational poison pill, so there you have it. I obviously can't speak for you, but based on what you have said, and the handful of recent comments from others, I think your read is correct.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 7897558, member: 957"] Heh So it seems that we agree on pretty much everything except our taste in game. And we absolutely disagree there. So, to be blunt, I don't see any baby to save in 4E. (No offense) I've never played 13th Age, but I have read it. It seems to take everything about 4E and go off the deep end with it. (No offense) As a semi-random example, I really like the broad concept of "failing forward", but that idea as described in 13A makes my eyeballs spin. Seriously, I don't want to go into a deeper battle over taste vs. taste. I get it. It is cool. But I truly can't imagine playing that game even for a one shot. Life is too short. And, the interesting thing to me is, people who love 13A always describe it as the game for story-tellers and people who want more narrative and less min maxing. I really have to stop myself and think slowly when I hear this. Because my knee-jerk reaction is to go on a rant. But, when I do step back I [I]think[/I] I get it. 13A has "one cool thing" and all these other bits and pieces that push players into a role and reward that kind of playing and tend to push away from kick in the door and roll init gameplay. In short, it gets the mechanics out of the way of the story. When the mechanics are there, they make an effort to resolve whatever and get back out of focus. I can certainly see that as narrative gaming. But I'm coming from the opposite perspective. The 3X/PF system is wide open to min/max and powergaming. It will let you sabotage yourself to your hearts content. But, [I]IF[/I] you are playing with a group that wants to tell a story and chooses to work with the system to realize a compelling story about a group of fantastic characters then the system really sings. Now, I'm good at running it. I have a current L9 PF game and a L15 game that is on pause due to life events for three different players. In both cases I generally have 2-3 pages of sessions prep notes, probably a few key monster stat blocks printed, a 1-page PC tracking sheet, and a grid pad I use for init and monster HP tracking. That is it. The core book is generally within hands reach. But I am very hesitant to reach for it, and rarely find that I need to. I have had entire sessions where the party when off script in the first five minutes and I'm playing by ear. I love those sessions. I realize not everyone can do this and my opinions are useless to them. But, to me, I don't need a game that pushes players into a role. I don't need a game that gets the mechanics out of the way. And what I really want is a rewarding "simulation" game, where cause and effect play out based on looking at the narrative pieces and asking how things should interact. And to do that well requires a pretty heavy system. PF does it better than any other game I've ever played, so I'm happy with it. And, despite not having the 13A narrative focused mechanics, I still have 100% of the value of them because the people at the table bring that. 13A gives me something I already have at the price of taking away something I love. Sorry if this ended up sounding confrontantional. It isn't my intent. I really do respect that my love of this solid cause and effect system comes with a price and isn't appealing to a lot of people. I completely repect that. Truly, I do. I'm just trying to express my personal view here and not calling it "right", I'm just calling it "mine". Yeah, to me PF2E seems a lot "less bad" than 4E or 13A. But I think that is because it still does offer a lot of the fiddly bits. It just also throws in this foundational poison pill, so there you have it. I obviously can't speak for you, but based on what you have said, and the handful of recent comments from others, I think your read is correct. [/QUOTE]
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