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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7905934" data-attributes="member: 957">There are plenty of good references in this thread that acknowledge that 4E did bad things to the D&D fanbase.  But you seem to be failing to make a distinction between someone like me who was happy to be vocal with exactly what I found wrong with 4E and people who just didn't want to play it.During 3E there were complaints that the dominance of the system was stifling innovation.  Everyone was publishing D20 stuff, so for a few years a lot less volume of really different stuff was coming out.And 5E is incredibly popular.  People very much have an extremely strong preference.  But, according to your statement, durign 4E people did not care.  Which is just a really soft way of saying they were appathetic towards 4E.  That is a BAD thing.    No, that was YOU saying I made the 4E collapse happen.  Please make up your mind.  I claim to speak for me and me only.  But it is easy to observe that when others spoke for themselves they didn't have much attraction to 4E.  (As you just said, they didn't care).  PFFF  total red herring.  You can dig around and find numerous quotes from me about how trivial a niche the TTRPG market really is.  But that has nothing to do with the conversation.  What should be obvious is that the context here is "within the gamer community".  Though I must say it is quite gratifying and ironically entertaining to me that in hindsight the game system that did not care about losing players like me because "we don't need them" and "every lost player will be replaced by 10 new players" is now using the reality that those other ten players were never really in the marketplace.   (Of course there is a whole separate conversation about how 5E is truly growing the hobby, but you can find those threads elsewhere.)Yeah, good times.   But, again, which is it?  Was it an "existential struggle"?  Or was it a time when most fans didn't even have a preference?  You can't have it both ways.  And, yet again, it is the same distinction between the tiny minority playing the "why is 4E floundering debate" against the bulk (of gamers, not of humans) who simply choose to play something that they DID find a preference for.Sour grapes.  You can sit here all day and say that 1+1=3 and I can't force you to retract it.  I won't tilt at your windmill of market force denial.Well, it will.  But, ultimately, the measure of how it stands on its merits will be judged by its popularity.  As with 4E, I have zero hard feelings towards anyone who loves PF2E.  It does what it does rather well.  I take this, I suppose arbitrary, position that a game that makes 25 people happy is "better" than a game that makes 4 people happy.</blockquote>

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