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Pathfinder 2E's reception?
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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7908122" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>Do you realize that you jumped here from saying it is not too far off from a mechanical fix to listing things that have pretty much nothing to do with mechanics? Feats and D20s touch it in the most tangential way, but just ever so slightly.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, this is mechanics.</p><p>But just saying that you think things doesn't make it a truth for everyone else. And the post reads (to me) as if you are observing something in a way that you think is equally observable for anyone else. </p><p></p><p>And I really want to stress that I have no dispute in the slightest with your table experience. PF2E is perfect for some people and it is well designed for delivering that. Full stop. You may very well have found the game that you personally will be enjoying 25 years from now and that is awesome. </p><p></p><p>But, for me, you can pick the "AC vs hit bonus" bit as one place where they completely destroyed the fun of the game. To me it is not about what the numbers are but simply whether they seem to accurately describe the character within the game system. I had a L15 PF game with PC ACs ranging from 18 to 28. And (as just one singular data point amongst many) those number FELT RIGHT. Would it have been noticed if the 18 was a 20? No. But it would have hurt everything if the system stepped in and said: "this is a problem, no L15 character should be losing this AC arms race, for no reason that has anything to do with the description of that character I'm going to change that low AC to 23". To me that would suck the fun out of the experience and miss the point of why I sat down at the table in the first place.</p><p></p><p>To me RPGs are not about balanced tactical combat. They are about creating a reasonable self consistent world and then creating character ideas within that world and playing out (through a combination of role-play and dice mechanics) how those characters get along in various exciting situations. </p><p></p><p>To me what PF2E did is like taking a traditional romance novel and having Jason Voorhees kill the leading man in the prolog. It might be an awesome horror novel, but it was not what I was looking for. The plus level thing might be a great tactical game and those who love it can roleplay to their hearts content with it. But the opportunity to model individual characters without the system telling me I need an arms race fixed has been destroyed before the game even starts.</p><p></p><p>And I am NOT saying this matters a hill of beans to you (or ANYONE). I am not saying or suggesting that I have enlightened anyone in anyway that is automatically relevant to their own experience. I am talking about me and me alone. </p><p></p><p>But I also think that one of the big problems that you get in these conversations is the presumption that others do or should see things the same way. There are completely reasonable justifications for seeing what you love about PF2E and choosing another game for some segment of those exact reasons. </p><p></p><p>So, for the question of "PF2E's reception", the question becomes "how many people see it which way" (again not to suggest there are two ways to see it here, but there are two end results: adopter and non-adopter).</p><p></p><p>And, I think, it is fair to take the perspectives of detractors into consideration and ask what could Paizo have done to increase their breadth of appeal and is there anything they can still do to modify that going forward?</p><p></p><p>Totally agree.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 7908122, member: 957"] Do you realize that you jumped here from saying it is not too far off from a mechanical fix to listing things that have pretty much nothing to do with mechanics? Feats and D20s touch it in the most tangential way, but just ever so slightly. Yes, this is mechanics. But just saying that you think things doesn't make it a truth for everyone else. And the post reads (to me) as if you are observing something in a way that you think is equally observable for anyone else. And I really want to stress that I have no dispute in the slightest with your table experience. PF2E is perfect for some people and it is well designed for delivering that. Full stop. You may very well have found the game that you personally will be enjoying 25 years from now and that is awesome. But, for me, you can pick the "AC vs hit bonus" bit as one place where they completely destroyed the fun of the game. To me it is not about what the numbers are but simply whether they seem to accurately describe the character within the game system. I had a L15 PF game with PC ACs ranging from 18 to 28. And (as just one singular data point amongst many) those number FELT RIGHT. Would it have been noticed if the 18 was a 20? No. But it would have hurt everything if the system stepped in and said: "this is a problem, no L15 character should be losing this AC arms race, for no reason that has anything to do with the description of that character I'm going to change that low AC to 23". To me that would suck the fun out of the experience and miss the point of why I sat down at the table in the first place. To me RPGs are not about balanced tactical combat. They are about creating a reasonable self consistent world and then creating character ideas within that world and playing out (through a combination of role-play and dice mechanics) how those characters get along in various exciting situations. To me what PF2E did is like taking a traditional romance novel and having Jason Voorhees kill the leading man in the prolog. It might be an awesome horror novel, but it was not what I was looking for. The plus level thing might be a great tactical game and those who love it can roleplay to their hearts content with it. But the opportunity to model individual characters without the system telling me I need an arms race fixed has been destroyed before the game even starts. And I am NOT saying this matters a hill of beans to you (or ANYONE). I am not saying or suggesting that I have enlightened anyone in anyway that is automatically relevant to their own experience. I am talking about me and me alone. But I also think that one of the big problems that you get in these conversations is the presumption that others do or should see things the same way. There are completely reasonable justifications for seeing what you love about PF2E and choosing another game for some segment of those exact reasons. So, for the question of "PF2E's reception", the question becomes "how many people see it which way" (again not to suggest there are two ways to see it here, but there are two end results: adopter and non-adopter). And, I think, it is fair to take the perspectives of detractors into consideration and ask what could Paizo have done to increase their breadth of appeal and is there anything they can still do to modify that going forward? Totally agree. [/QUOTE]
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