Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pathfinder 2nd Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 7359482" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>That AP felt like they were afraid to push the envelop and do something very different. </p><p>Okay, it shouldn't be <em>Call of Cthulhu</em> but Paizo's adventures are curiously predictable with their mandatory dungeon crawls in every part. Really, I imagine the default playstyle has as much to do with their inability to vary the game that much. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's how it <strong><em>started</em></strong>. That's what the people buying the original print run (and the rapid second print run) wanted. But what about the people who bought the third print run, a year or so after? Or the fourth? Or the fifth? Each print run getting larger and larger.</p><p>When the game started it was a bunch of people who didn't want to upgrade to 4e. But now it has an audience of its own. Arguably a larger audience. </p><p></p><p>Even if it's not and the vast majority of Pathfinder fans are former 3e fans... that's not a sustainable audience. It's not like they're making more 3e fans. Invariably some will die or leave gaming or switch to other games. That's not a long term audience. It has to strike a balance between appealing to that original core audience and the (probably larger) percentage of newcomers. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Minor tweaks aren't a whole edition. They're a fanbrew PDF of house rules and revisions. </p><p>If Pathfinder Revised is just going to be minor tweaks... then, yeah, why bother? </p><p></p><p>After all, this ignores a lot of the underlying flaws of the system. Like how high level monsters have ridiculous numbers of feats and their saves are ridiculous. Or how play just breaks down for a full third of the levels. Or how characters get five attacks, one of which can only miss on a 1 and the last can only hit on a "20". </p><p>There's a lot of just plain bad math in the game. Almost as if it's based on rulebooks being written by different people at the same time who were only half-coordinating. </p><p></p><p>The designers of Pathfinder have talked about legacy mechanics they wish they hadn't included. Jason Bulhman discussed how swift action just slowed down the game and probably weren't necessary. There was a lot of stuff that was included just because they promised Pathfinder would be largely backwards compatible. Ditto <em>Starfinder</em>, which is ridiculously conservative in its design. I've seen numerous 3PP that went farther with the system (such as <em>Star Wars Saga</em>, which predates Pathfinder by a couple years). </p><p> </p><p></p><p>That sounds like one of the dozens of "D&D with a twist" campaign setting/ RPG hybrids that was released during the 2000s. (My favourite was <em>Midnight</em>. Great setting.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Have you ever made a CR 8 monster following all the rules? It's a pain in the ass. And there's inevitably a mistake in the math. Have you ever looked at the <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VgbhygtP9ftd51cBxQBjAs2YuTVfVHBZnxxXT0oFx2w/edit" target="_blank">errata documents</a> Paizo APs? Pretty much every other statblock has a major math error in it. And those are done by professionals and heavily edited. </p><p></p><p>There benefits are outweighed by the costs. </p><p>Even Paizo seems to think so, since they went with the <em>Unchained </em>simple monsters for <em>Starfinder</em>. Pretty much the only rule from that book to make it into SF...</p><p></p><p></p><p>So... you're saying there's a market for such a product? A niche to be filled? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p>It kinda is. To a lot of people it is. Other than the gods, find one bit of Golarion lore in, oh, say the first six hardcover books. </p><p>Which begs the question: should it drop the pretence of being generic and double down on being the Golarion RPG? </p><p></p><p></p><p>So don't use them. </p><p>It's always easier to ignore a secondary mechanic than it is for a non-designer to create one and work it into the game. Those mechanics should be there for people who like them but not so baked in (i.e. included in feats and class features) that it's tricky to play without. </p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a lot of great ideas in modern games. Like the non-binary success of <em>Genysis</em>/ FFG <em>Star Wars</em>. Or that same game system's back-and-forth Force Point system that allows you to boost a dice <u>and/or</u> manipulate the story. Or <em>Star Trek Adventures'</em> Momentum system, where you pool points from extraordinary successes that can be used to boost future rolls or, again, alter the narrative.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 7359482, member: 37579"] That AP felt like they were afraid to push the envelop and do something very different. Okay, it shouldn't be [I]Call of Cthulhu[/I] but Paizo's adventures are curiously predictable with their mandatory dungeon crawls in every part. Really, I imagine the default playstyle has as much to do with their inability to vary the game that much. That's how it [B][I]started[/I][/B]. That's what the people buying the original print run (and the rapid second print run) wanted. But what about the people who bought the third print run, a year or so after? Or the fourth? Or the fifth? Each print run getting larger and larger. When the game started it was a bunch of people who didn't want to upgrade to 4e. But now it has an audience of its own. Arguably a larger audience. Even if it's not and the vast majority of Pathfinder fans are former 3e fans... that's not a sustainable audience. It's not like they're making more 3e fans. Invariably some will die or leave gaming or switch to other games. That's not a long term audience. It has to strike a balance between appealing to that original core audience and the (probably larger) percentage of newcomers. Minor tweaks aren't a whole edition. They're a fanbrew PDF of house rules and revisions. If Pathfinder Revised is just going to be minor tweaks... then, yeah, why bother? After all, this ignores a lot of the underlying flaws of the system. Like how high level monsters have ridiculous numbers of feats and their saves are ridiculous. Or how play just breaks down for a full third of the levels. Or how characters get five attacks, one of which can only miss on a 1 and the last can only hit on a "20". There's a lot of just plain bad math in the game. Almost as if it's based on rulebooks being written by different people at the same time who were only half-coordinating. The designers of Pathfinder have talked about legacy mechanics they wish they hadn't included. Jason Bulhman discussed how swift action just slowed down the game and probably weren't necessary. There was a lot of stuff that was included just because they promised Pathfinder would be largely backwards compatible. Ditto [I]Starfinder[/I], which is ridiculously conservative in its design. I've seen numerous 3PP that went farther with the system (such as [I]Star Wars Saga[/I], which predates Pathfinder by a couple years). That sounds like one of the dozens of "D&D with a twist" campaign setting/ RPG hybrids that was released during the 2000s. (My favourite was [I]Midnight[/I]. Great setting.) Have you ever made a CR 8 monster following all the rules? It's a pain in the ass. And there's inevitably a mistake in the math. Have you ever looked at the [URL="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VgbhygtP9ftd51cBxQBjAs2YuTVfVHBZnxxXT0oFx2w/edit"]errata documents[/URL] Paizo APs? Pretty much every other statblock has a major math error in it. And those are done by professionals and heavily edited. There benefits are outweighed by the costs. Even Paizo seems to think so, since they went with the [I]Unchained [/I]simple monsters for [I]Starfinder[/I]. Pretty much the only rule from that book to make it into SF... So... you're saying there's a market for such a product? A niche to be filled? ;) It kinda is. To a lot of people it is. Other than the gods, find one bit of Golarion lore in, oh, say the first six hardcover books. Which begs the question: should it drop the pretence of being generic and double down on being the Golarion RPG? So don't use them. It's always easier to ignore a secondary mechanic than it is for a non-designer to create one and work it into the game. Those mechanics should be there for people who like them but not so baked in (i.e. included in feats and class features) that it's tricky to play without. There's a lot of great ideas in modern games. Like the non-binary success of [I]Genysis[/I]/ FFG [I]Star Wars[/I]. Or that same game system's back-and-forth Force Point system that allows you to boost a dice [U]and/or[/U] manipulate the story. Or [I]Star Trek Adventures'[/I] Momentum system, where you pool points from extraordinary successes that can be used to boost future rolls or, again, alter the narrative. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pathfinder 2nd Edition
Top