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<blockquote data-quote="Shisumo" data-source="post: 5246627" data-attributes="member: 85314">Ah, reductio ad absurdum, how I love thee so.&nbsp;No, she doesn't need more spells known. She might want them, but she doesn't need them, and she probably wants more hit points and more skill points as well. Moreover, she gets more spells known as she levels up, so what we're talking about is how soon she's getting the particular spell(s) she's wanting.&nbsp;You stipulated six 2nd-level spells that sorcerers are going to want - I pointed out that those six spells will eventually be available to many, if not most, sorcerers, without ever giving up the skill point(s) or hit point(s) they would get from their favored class otherwise.&nbsp;What I'm trying to get at, here, is that we're not choosing between the best spells at each level and the hit point or skill point. We're choosing between the hit point/skill point and the 4th-, 5th-, 6th- or possbly even 8th- or 9th-best spells at every level, once you take into account all the spells known a sorcerer will eventually learn for a given level. By the time you're that far down the list, scrolls and wands are perfectly decent alternatives; you're honestly not likely to be casting those spells all that often anyway.&nbsp;In point of fact, sorcerers already have access to those extra spells via magic items now - are you seriously concerned that these useful-on-occasion-only spells are game-breaking as things stand?&nbsp; Does not having to have a scroll really change that much?&nbsp;The other thing you seem to be ignoring is that these spells known are coming at levels where your primary powers are spells a whole level higher; if they were at the highest level you could cast, it would be much more powerful, but 6th-best 2nd-level spells when you've already gotten your two favorite 3rd-level spells and one from a bloodline as well isn't nearly as cool.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Shisumo, post: 5246627, member: 85314"] Ah, reductio ad absurdum, how I love thee so. No, she doesn't need more spells known. She might want them, but she doesn't need them, and she probably wants more hit points and more skill points as well. Moreover, she [I]gets[/I] more spells known as she levels up, so what we're talking about is how soon she's getting the particular spell(s) she's wanting. You stipulated six 2nd-level spells that sorcerers are going to want - I pointed out that those six spells will eventually be available to many, if not most, sorcerers, without ever giving up the skill point(s) or hit point(s) they would get from their favored class otherwise. What I'm trying to get at, here, is that we're not choosing between the best spells at each level and the hit point or skill point. We're choosing between the hit point/skill point and the 4th-, 5th-, 6th- or possbly even 8th- or 9th-best spells at every level, once you take into account all the spells known a sorcerer will eventually learn for a given level. By the time you're that far down the list, scrolls and wands are perfectly decent alternatives; you're honestly not likely to be casting those spells all that often anyway. In point of fact, sorcerers already have access to those extra spells via magic items [i]now[/i] - are you seriously concerned that these useful-on-occasion-only spells are game-breaking as things stand? Does not having to have a scroll really change that much? The other thing you seem to be ignoring is that these spells known are coming at levels where your primary powers are spells a whole level higher; if they were at the highest level you could cast, it would be much more powerful, but 6th-best 2nd-level spells when you've already gotten your two favorite 3rd-level spells and one from a bloodline as well isn't nearly as cool. [/QUOTE]

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