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<blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 8198331" data-attributes="member: 6801252"><p>I don't think anyone should be attacked for their views. I also don't think debating the validity (the property of an argument consisting in the fact that the truth of the premises logically guarantees the truth of the conclusion) or soundness (a sound argument is an argument that is both valid, and all of whose premises are true) of someone's view is an attack.</p><p></p><p>There's this kind of whip crack technique, that I feel your post is a reasonable example of (intentionally or not) that's become common in the discourse that asserts that any-given-experience is self-justifying to the point that any mitigation of the assertions derived from experiences is combative and exclusionary. In contrast, I find learning curves to be a necessary evil of the hobby, not just in rules, but in technique (after all, any given system is more of a Game Engine, than a game in and of itself, so a lot of the actual design power is awarded to the players by means of the GM, even down to the moment to moment presentation.)</p><p></p><p>So the quality of the experience is an intersection of multiple factors that are interdependent of one another-- the material reality of the system is one dimension, the GM's design and presentation is another, the players decision making in play is yet another, there's an affective element (everyone's attitudes toward what they're doing and mood), and finally the intersection of how the material reality of the system interacts with each of these things.</p><p></p><p>So you might have a bad experience, but if we adjust some of these other factors with advice, you might be able to have a very positive experience without the system itself changing at all without any meaningful burden on your part going forward. Similarly, some of the affective elements of your play might be heavily conditioned by a set of expectations created by other games, preconceived notions of this game, and so forth and that can be important to diagnosing your paint points as well. I've never met a system that doesn't have to be 'massaged' in this way to be fun for a pretty significant portion of it's player base.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The-Magic-Sword, post: 8198331, member: 6801252"] I don't think anyone should be attacked for their views. I also don't think debating the validity (the property of an argument consisting in the fact that the truth of the premises logically guarantees the truth of the conclusion) or soundness (a sound argument is an argument that is both valid, and all of whose premises are true) of someone's view is an attack. There's this kind of whip crack technique, that I feel your post is a reasonable example of (intentionally or not) that's become common in the discourse that asserts that any-given-experience is self-justifying to the point that any mitigation of the assertions derived from experiences is combative and exclusionary. In contrast, I find learning curves to be a necessary evil of the hobby, not just in rules, but in technique (after all, any given system is more of a Game Engine, than a game in and of itself, so a lot of the actual design power is awarded to the players by means of the GM, even down to the moment to moment presentation.) So the quality of the experience is an intersection of multiple factors that are interdependent of one another-- the material reality of the system is one dimension, the GM's design and presentation is another, the players decision making in play is yet another, there's an affective element (everyone's attitudes toward what they're doing and mood), and finally the intersection of how the material reality of the system interacts with each of these things. So you might have a bad experience, but if we adjust some of these other factors with advice, you might be able to have a very positive experience without the system itself changing at all without any meaningful burden on your part going forward. Similarly, some of the affective elements of your play might be heavily conditioned by a set of expectations created by other games, preconceived notions of this game, and so forth and that can be important to diagnosing your paint points as well. I've never met a system that doesn't have to be 'massaged' in this way to be fun for a pretty significant portion of it's player base. [/QUOTE]
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