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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8202270" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Assuming you're talking about gish builds, it simply cannot be done without serious design work (that neither WotC nor Paizo are willing to do).</p><p></p><p>First: nobody wants magic balanced with physical attacks. (Evidence: 4E)</p><p></p><p>So the obverse of a sorcerer 'nearly as good at spear as a fighter' is not having a fighter 'nearly as good at evocation as a sorcerer' since that's OP.</p><p></p><p>In PF2 you can definitely make casters suck less at weaponry without in the slightest having to worry about them overshadowing the actual fighters, since it isn't the specific attack chance that makes you a fighter. It's you ability to survive the front lines that makes you a fighter.</p><p></p><p>A Wizard has maybe 60% of the hp of a fighter, and worse AC. Moreover, he has probably not maxed out Strength and Constitution.</p><p></p><p>You don't need to make his physical attacks a joke on top of that. In a system where a fighter starting out with a 16 instead of 18 is a significant cost (because every +1 is incredibly important) you probably can give a Wizard every offense a Fighter gets - his Strength 8 will nicely curtail his physical activities regardless. (Obviously I'm assuming point buy here - rolling up stats is just LOLWUT levels of randomness in the context of PF2)</p><p></p><p>What I meant at the top was that if you really want the image of a cool "magic fighter" you need to drop the idea this person is also a full caster (with access to the full spell lists).</p><p></p><p>But really what you want to do is acknowledge that the allure of the gish is honestly the allure of being OP. What you want when you play a gish is to be good at everything. Which is fine, if you drop the regular fighter (make it a NPC class, say).</p><p></p><p>This is so because the only remaining option is to balance your gish with other fighter subclasses, and now it doesn't feel so good anymore, right? Now your cool magic tricks are just on par with what a non-magical fighter can do in other ways, and that's just not what I want in a gish. A gish wants to be a regular fighter enhanced by magic, or a full spellcaster that somehow is cool in combat too.</p><p></p><p>And that's just a different game than a game that purports to support classical archetypes as the magic-averse dwarf fighter and the frail old wizard.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8202270, member: 12731"] Assuming you're talking about gish builds, it simply cannot be done without serious design work (that neither WotC nor Paizo are willing to do). First: nobody wants magic balanced with physical attacks. (Evidence: 4E) So the obverse of a sorcerer 'nearly as good at spear as a fighter' is not having a fighter 'nearly as good at evocation as a sorcerer' since that's OP. In PF2 you can definitely make casters suck less at weaponry without in the slightest having to worry about them overshadowing the actual fighters, since it isn't the specific attack chance that makes you a fighter. It's you ability to survive the front lines that makes you a fighter. A Wizard has maybe 60% of the hp of a fighter, and worse AC. Moreover, he has probably not maxed out Strength and Constitution. You don't need to make his physical attacks a joke on top of that. In a system where a fighter starting out with a 16 instead of 18 is a significant cost (because every +1 is incredibly important) you probably can give a Wizard every offense a Fighter gets - his Strength 8 will nicely curtail his physical activities regardless. (Obviously I'm assuming point buy here - rolling up stats is just LOLWUT levels of randomness in the context of PF2) What I meant at the top was that if you really want the image of a cool "magic fighter" you need to drop the idea this person is also a full caster (with access to the full spell lists). But really what you want to do is acknowledge that the allure of the gish is honestly the allure of being OP. What you want when you play a gish is to be good at everything. Which is fine, if you drop the regular fighter (make it a NPC class, say). This is so because the only remaining option is to balance your gish with other fighter subclasses, and now it doesn't feel so good anymore, right? Now your cool magic tricks are just on par with what a non-magical fighter can do in other ways, and that's just not what I want in a gish. A gish wants to be a regular fighter enhanced by magic, or a full spellcaster that somehow is cool in combat too. And that's just a different game than a game that purports to support classical archetypes as the magic-averse dwarf fighter and the frail old wizard. [/QUOTE]
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