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<blockquote data-quote="Windjammer" data-source="post: 8204199" data-attributes="member: 60075">Thanks, solid points throughout. One clarification: I actually really, really dislike the blandness of 5e so PF2 doesn't need to convince me to be a &quot;better&quot; 5e. That's why I referenced the promise of 5e rather than the game's eventual (rather disappointing) execution. I do think that 5e remains a benchmark of success for broad appeal though, and you and I agree that copying 5e is not necessary to success. A game that, in my exact verbiage, &quot;learns from the lessons of 5E&quot; could look nothing like 5e - and I strongly suspect it would. So I'm actually as far from the &quot;5e ++&quot; camp (to use your handy term) as you can imagine. I think nothing worthwhile came out of Wizards of the Coast since 4.0.Secondly, the organization of content issue has nothing to do with 5e. This was years ago when I played some of FFG's 40k games. All of which are like 300 to 400 page hardcovers. Ended up printing the player-relevant portions and had it soft bound in a 100 page binder. It was the envy of our game table. Loved it.There's a reason why, outside PF and FFG's RPG cames, most gamelines put the GM material in a separate book. It's just more convenient from a portability perspective and doesn't intimidate the fledgling player as much.So yeah, all I'd be asking for from PF2 (where I own all the books in specialty edition, except Bestiary 2), is a convenient player's guide featuring cleaned-up prose and de-cluttered from GM content. The Beginner's Book player book is already half way there.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Windjammer, post: 8204199, member: 60075"] Thanks, solid points throughout. One clarification: I actually really, really dislike the blandness of 5e so PF2 doesn't need to convince me to be a "better" 5e. That's why I referenced the [B]promise[/B] of 5e rather than the game's eventual (rather disappointing) execution. I do think that 5e remains a benchmark of success for broad appeal though, and you and I agree that copying 5e is not necessary to success. A game that, in my exact verbiage, "learns from the lessons of 5E" could look nothing like 5e - and I strongly suspect it would. So I'm actually as far from the "5e ++" camp (to use your handy term) as you can imagine. I think nothing worthwhile came out of Wizards of the Coast since 4.0. Secondly, the organization of content issue has nothing to do with 5e. This was years ago when I played some of FFG's 40k games. All of which are like 300 to 400 page hardcovers. Ended up printing the player-relevant portions and had it soft bound in a 100 page binder. It was the envy of our game table. Loved it. There's a reason why, outside PF and FFG's RPG cames, most gamelines put the GM material in a separate book. It's just more convenient from a portability perspective and doesn't intimidate the fledgling player as much. So yeah, all I'd be asking for from PF2 (where I own all the books in specialty edition, except Bestiary 2), is a convenient player's guide featuring cleaned-up prose and de-cluttered from GM content. The Beginner's Book player book is already half way there. [/QUOTE]

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