Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Kaisoku" data-source="post: 5876616" data-attributes="member: 58447">XP costs were removed because of the XP table for leveling in Pathfinder.There's plenty of other justifications. Here's some developer comments on a good thread about the subject (<a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated" target="_blank">link</a>):Sean K Reynolds: &quot;The wizard who takes a day off to make a big scroll ends up LESS&nbsp; experienced with magic than the wizard who takes a day off to get drunk.&nbsp; That doesn't make sense.&quot; (<a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#22" target="_blank">link</a>)James Jacobs: &quot;We removed the XP costs because we thought they were unfair. Wizards,&nbsp; in particular, were tripple taxed for doing their thing—in 3.5 they had&nbsp; to pay gold, time, AND XP in order to take advantage of their class&nbsp; features (scribing scrolls and crafting magic items).&nbsp; Furthermore... it always felt nonsensical to me that you would &quot;spend&nbsp; XP&quot; (and thus grow LESS experienced) for successfully building a magic&nbsp; item, which to me feels like something that you should actually become&nbsp; MORE experienced at. It's non-intuitive and wonky to say &quot;I spent all my&nbsp; life building magic items, and as a result I am less experienced than&nbsp; all those spellcasters who never built a single thing in their entire&nbsp; lives!&quot; (<a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#13" target="_blank">link</a>)Ultimately though, the real reason was explained by the head honcho, Lead Developer himself...Jason Bulmahn: &quot;When we were redesigning some elements of the game, one that we took a&nbsp; look at was the XP progression chart. The 3.5 chart was not open&nbsp; content and we wanted a progression that allowed for simpler design&nbsp; without having to cross reference a chart to figure out how much XP a&nbsp; monster was worth relative to the group. After a few drafts and a lot of&nbsp; reverse engineering, we came up with the charts you see today.&nbsp; One thing you might notice.. the xp values balloon up quite quickly.&nbsp; We liked this fact, it made it feel a bit more epic when your high level&nbsp; PCs got 80,000xp for an adventure.&nbsp; Now, back to the point at hand... when it came to XP costs, the&nbsp; existing system MIC system, combined with the reworked charts, meant&nbsp; that the XP costs quickly became mostly irrelevant to higher level&nbsp; characters and after a bit of math, it was mostly irrelevant in the old&nbsp; system too, except in the odd case where the spellcaster was a game&nbsp; behind in leveling with the rest of the group. This &quot;cost&quot; was hardly&nbsp; worth the effort. The real cost here is the feat and time costs, which&nbsp; we kept.&quot; (<a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl&amp;page=4?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#157" target="_blank">link</a>)and&quot;The XP costs in the old system topped out at about 4,000xp for a&nbsp; 200,000gp item, which is pretty paltry to a high level character that&nbsp; needs 500,000xp to get their next level (especially considering the time&nbsp; requirements). We did, at one point in time, consider a complicated&nbsp; scaling system to keep the xp costs and keep them relevant, but it was&nbsp; just more trouble than its worth. The MIC system is already convoluted&nbsp; and open to abuse without careful monitoring by an active GM.&nbsp; In the end, we decided that the sort of &quot;fake&quot; cost paid to make&nbsp; items and cast spells was simply not worth the design space for the&nbsp; payout it was supposed to simulate.&nbsp; XP costs for spells and magic items will not be coming back. If you&nbsp; feel you need them for your game, by all means, add them back in, but&nbsp; they will not be returning to the core mechanics.&quot; (<a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl&amp;page=4?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#165" target="_blank">link</a>)&nbsp;Finally, here's the FAQ on Wealth and Crafting Feats:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.&nbsp; If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to&nbsp; count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting&nbsp; any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set&nbsp; limits in equipping the character, such as &quot;no more than 40% of your&nbsp; wealth can be used for armor&quot; (instead of the &quot;balanced approach&quot;&nbsp; described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on&nbsp; armor).&nbsp; If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by&nbsp; level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you&nbsp; counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look&nbsp; like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM&nbsp; would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing&nbsp; future treasure for that character, which means eventually that&nbsp; character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect&nbsp; neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; —Sean K Reynolds,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 01/13/12(<a href="http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook#v5748eaic9ouz" target="_blank">link</a>).So there you have it. The justifications, the real reason, and the official stance on the issue of XP Costs, Wealth and Crafting Items.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kaisoku, post: 5876616, member: 58447"] XP costs were removed because of the XP table for leveling in Pathfinder. There's plenty of other justifications. Here's some developer comments on a good thread about the subject ([URL="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated"]link[/URL]): [B]Sean K Reynolds[/B]: "[COLOR=SeaGreen]The wizard who takes a day off to make a big scroll ends up LESS experienced with magic than the wizard who takes a day off to get drunk. That doesn't make sense.[/COLOR]" ([URL="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#22"]link[/URL]) [B]James Jacobs[/B]: "[COLOR=SeaGreen]We removed the XP costs because we thought they were unfair. Wizards, in particular, were tripple taxed for doing their thing—in 3.5 they had to pay gold, time, AND XP in order to take advantage of their class features (scribing scrolls and crafting magic items). Furthermore... it always felt nonsensical to me that you would "spend XP" (and thus grow LESS experienced) for successfully building a magic item, which to me feels like something that you should actually become MORE experienced at. It's non-intuitive and wonky to say "I spent all my life building magic items, and as a result I am less experienced than all those spellcasters who never built a single thing in their entire lives![/COLOR]" ([URL="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#13"]link[/URL]) Ultimately though, the real reason was explained by the head honcho, Lead Developer himself... [B]Jason Bulmahn[/B]: "[COLOR=MediumTurquoise]When we were redesigning some elements of the game, one that we took a look at was the XP progression chart. The 3.5 chart was not open content and we wanted a progression that allowed for simpler design without having to cross reference a chart to figure out how much XP a monster was worth relative to the group. After a few drafts and a lot of reverse engineering, we came up with the charts you see today. One thing you might notice.. the xp values balloon up quite quickly. We liked this fact, it made it feel a bit more epic when your high level PCs got 80,000xp for an adventure. Now, back to the point at hand... when it came to XP costs, the existing system MIC system, combined with the reworked charts, meant that the XP costs quickly became mostly irrelevant to higher level characters and after a bit of math, it was mostly irrelevant in the old system too, except in the odd case where the spellcaster was a game behind in leveling with the rest of the group. This "cost" was hardly worth the effort. The real cost here is the feat and time costs, which we kept.[/COLOR]" ([URL="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl&page=4?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#157"]link[/URL]) and "[COLOR=MediumTurquoise]The XP costs in the old system topped out at about 4,000xp for a 200,000gp item, which is pretty paltry to a high level character that needs 500,000xp to get their next level (especially considering the time requirements). We did, at one point in time, consider a complicated scaling system to keep the xp costs and keep them relevant, but it was just more trouble than its worth. The MIC system is already convoluted and open to abuse without careful monitoring by an active GM.[/COLOR] [COLOR=MediumTurquoise]In the end, we decided that the sort of "fake" cost paid to make items and cast spells was simply not worth the design space for the payout it was supposed to simulate.[/COLOR] [COLOR=MediumTurquoise]XP costs for spells and magic items will not be coming back. If you feel you need them for your game, by all means, add them back in, but they will not be returning to the core mechanics.[/COLOR]" ([URL="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5dfl&page=4?Why-was-XP-cost-eliminated#165"]link[/URL]) Finally, here's the FAQ on Wealth and Crafting Feats: [B] [SIZE=3]PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost? [/SIZE][/B] It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways. If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor). If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all. [SIZE=1]—Sean K Reynolds, 01/13/12[/SIZE] ([URL="http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook#v5748eaic9ouz"]link[/URL]) . So there you have it. The justifications, the real reason, and the official stance on the issue of XP Costs, Wealth and Crafting Items. [/QUOTE]

Verification