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<blockquote data-quote="gamerprinter" data-source="post: 6124989" data-attributes="member: 50895"><p>Honestly things like use of miniatures, positioning and movement can almost be hand-waved aside. Having played many years of D&D, one can play PF the same way, with only rough positioning, knowing where the opponent is, where the terrain hazards are and then playing combat a bit statically. But then all the special movements, feats and such that improve combat have to go out the window. But this really only happens in combat, and there are minimal opportunities for roleplay in most combat situations. So excise the rules in social situations, and including them in combat only, I don't find it should be too much of a problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is a player issue, not a system issue. I know plenty of players who game the numbers, as those who rely heavily on roleplaying vs. roll playing. If you place a numbers gaming player into a 2e game, he's going to find some way to game the system, even if 2e is less gamable than 3x+. I grant you that for 3x/PF there are more combinations of abilities that play on the math of the game, making it easier for a 'number crunching' player to try to game it. Again this is a player issue and not really Pathfinder's fault. Find different players - I've gotten rid of all the system-gamers from our gaming group. Do the same and the problem will go away. If you can't get rid of a particular player, because he's your friend - then you'll have to learn to live with it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, no, it's hardwired into certain players and made that way since 3x - get rid of those players and you've gotten rid of the problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really while social situations can be enhanced with skill use, feat use, subsystem use, you can invariably run social situations without using any mechanics at all. I really don't need a Pathfinder mechanic to role play. If you're group is weak on playing social situations, then specific rules to help emulate social situations can help - and then looking at the unbalanced rules of combat mechanics vs. social mechanics. But if your players are good roleplayers, those role playing mechanic bits like skill use is completely unnecessary. Don't ask your player to make a skill check ever, ask if he has the skill and then let the player talk it out with the NPC. If you never ask for a skill check, a skill check will never be rolled - and that fiddly mechanical bit will never get in the way. It is the job of you the GM to set the tone of which social mechanics should be included or not. IT IS NOT A SYSTEM ISSUE - all are player and game master issues only.</p><p></p><p>It's like the inclusion of subsystem Romance point rules for Jade Regent - does anybody really need that kind of subsystem (or any subsystem) to run social situations? Answer: no. This is strictly for groups who are over-number-concerned, which aren't all/most gamers. For those optimizers, the Romance rules can help invoke social situations. For those gamers who have no problem role playing, there is absolutely no need for the Romance rules, hence why most groups playing JR never use it.</p><p></p><p>The developers including the option, gives more tools to the GM that needs it. But all subsystems are OPTIONAL. You don't have to play them, just because it's included. To put the blame on the system, suggests that you as a GM cannot customize the game for your group - and that has never been true in any D&D/PF game. The problem is in your hands only - not the system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="gamerprinter, post: 6124989, member: 50895"] Honestly things like use of miniatures, positioning and movement can almost be hand-waved aside. Having played many years of D&D, one can play PF the same way, with only rough positioning, knowing where the opponent is, where the terrain hazards are and then playing combat a bit statically. But then all the special movements, feats and such that improve combat have to go out the window. But this really only happens in combat, and there are minimal opportunities for roleplay in most combat situations. So excise the rules in social situations, and including them in combat only, I don't find it should be too much of a problem. That is a player issue, not a system issue. I know plenty of players who game the numbers, as those who rely heavily on roleplaying vs. roll playing. If you place a numbers gaming player into a 2e game, he's going to find some way to game the system, even if 2e is less gamable than 3x+. I grant you that for 3x/PF there are more combinations of abilities that play on the math of the game, making it easier for a 'number crunching' player to try to game it. Again this is a player issue and not really Pathfinder's fault. Find different players - I've gotten rid of all the system-gamers from our gaming group. Do the same and the problem will go away. If you can't get rid of a particular player, because he's your friend - then you'll have to learn to live with it. Again, no, it's hardwired into certain players and made that way since 3x - get rid of those players and you've gotten rid of the problem. Really while social situations can be enhanced with skill use, feat use, subsystem use, you can invariably run social situations without using any mechanics at all. I really don't need a Pathfinder mechanic to role play. If you're group is weak on playing social situations, then specific rules to help emulate social situations can help - and then looking at the unbalanced rules of combat mechanics vs. social mechanics. But if your players are good roleplayers, those role playing mechanic bits like skill use is completely unnecessary. Don't ask your player to make a skill check ever, ask if he has the skill and then let the player talk it out with the NPC. If you never ask for a skill check, a skill check will never be rolled - and that fiddly mechanical bit will never get in the way. It is the job of you the GM to set the tone of which social mechanics should be included or not. IT IS NOT A SYSTEM ISSUE - all are player and game master issues only. It's like the inclusion of subsystem Romance point rules for Jade Regent - does anybody really need that kind of subsystem (or any subsystem) to run social situations? Answer: no. This is strictly for groups who are over-number-concerned, which aren't all/most gamers. For those optimizers, the Romance rules can help invoke social situations. For those gamers who have no problem role playing, there is absolutely no need for the Romance rules, hence why most groups playing JR never use it. The developers including the option, gives more tools to the GM that needs it. But all subsystems are OPTIONAL. You don't have to play them, just because it's included. To put the blame on the system, suggests that you as a GM cannot customize the game for your group - and that has never been true in any D&D/PF game. The problem is in your hands only - not the system. [/QUOTE]
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