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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 4127735" data-attributes="member: 957">By that logic anything labeled 4e would be better. I think it is far more reasonable to make the case based on the elements of the edition in question.I know for certain that many people really didn't like 3e and I know for certain that many people will like 4e.  Those items are not in question and don't really prove anything.I also know for certain that 3e was a huge success.  Has it run its course in terms of being a large-scale marketable game that can keep cranking out big selling title after title?  Probably so.  And so I don't question at all the logic of going to 4e.But again, you have to look at the details.  IMO 4e will start in a hole of some fraction of lost players.  And I really don't believe that it will retain players as well either.  I'm not claiming people will change their mind and decide they didn't like it after all.  But I think it is losing a lot of what makes it distinct, what makes it a game of choice.  I think it will be a lot more common for 4e to be a game that people like to play, amongst a lot of games they like to play, rather than being THE game they play, or at least the first choice of games they play.3E proved itself as a landmark and very successful.  So telling me that some people didn't like it doesn't mean much.  4E has a high standard to reach, a standard that can not even be measured for two or three years. So telling me know that some people like it doesn't mean much.Which gets to the point where I strongly agree with you.  5e will be a great opportunity.In the mean time, there are many people who don't see 3E's problems as all that hard to manage.  (Many of the debates on the Paizo boards right now are around how much the changes should be rolled back!!! )And PF has a much lower standard it needs to reach in order to be a smashing success.</blockquote>

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