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<blockquote data-quote="dm4hire" data-source="post: 4653022" data-attributes="member: 14848">You know I think I figured out what the real key problem with epic is.&nbsp; No planning.&nbsp; And 4e is already falling into this trap, but it isn't too late for PF.&nbsp; By planning I mean taking into consideration what really is the top level of play and what monsters are at that top level.&nbsp; If becoming a diety is to be considered the highest you can go, or even uber god like Io or Ao are depicted, then there really shouldn't be anything beyond that.&nbsp; All you would really find at that level is other dieties to which you are left with fighting each other and that becomes boring.I think the first step would be to determine what level will be the final; whether it be 20, 30, or even upto 100.&nbsp; Then every monster needs to be scaled on that level system so that they present the proper challenge.&nbsp; The reason this has been a problem is that in the past we've seen monsters that were meant to be the baddest top tier monster/encounter but then the bar is raised and oh they aren't anymore but they should be, hm.&nbsp; How can we fix that?&nbsp; We'll make new monsters (not that there's anything wrong with that) to fill the new void that we've created by upping the level or leave it to the DM to decide how to fix the problem by just bumping the dice and abilities.&nbsp; The last aspect tends to lead to either TPK or walk through the park encounters that don't challenge.By planning the epic now and reserving monsters for it we'd see true ultimate threats being presented when they should be.&nbsp; So if Paizo is really thinking about doing Epic or just tossing the idea around I think it would work a lot better to start planning in advance.&nbsp; Worse come to worse you just release a different monster manual with the excluded monsters if you decide not to do Epic.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dm4hire, post: 4653022, member: 14848"] You know I think I figured out what the real key problem with epic is. No planning. And 4e is already falling into this trap, but it isn't too late for PF. By planning I mean taking into consideration what really is the top level of play and what monsters are at that top level. If becoming a diety is to be considered the highest you can go, or even uber god like Io or Ao are depicted, then there really shouldn't be anything beyond that. All you would really find at that level is other dieties to which you are left with fighting each other and that becomes boring. I think the first step would be to determine what level will be the final; whether it be 20, 30, or even upto 100. Then every monster needs to be scaled on that level system so that they present the proper challenge. The reason this has been a problem is that in the past we've seen monsters that were meant to be the baddest top tier monster/encounter but then the bar is raised and oh they aren't anymore but they should be, hm. How can we fix that? We'll make new monsters (not that there's anything wrong with that) to fill the new void that we've created by upping the level or leave it to the DM to decide how to fix the problem by just bumping the dice and abilities. The last aspect tends to lead to either TPK or walk through the park encounters that don't challenge. By planning the epic now and reserving monsters for it we'd see true ultimate threats being presented when they should be. So if Paizo is really thinking about doing Epic or just tossing the idea around I think it would work a lot better to start planning in advance. Worse come to worse you just release a different monster manual with the excluded monsters if you decide not to do Epic. [/QUOTE]

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