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<blockquote data-quote="wakedown" data-source="post: 7638676" data-attributes="member: 15901">After skimming through the final rules, it looks like Paizo is going after the same kinds of player-minds that subsidized 4E sales.&nbsp;&nbsp; They aren't trying to build a comparable product to 1E-3E &amp; 5E.These rules aren't likely to win over your average group.&nbsp; Most groups I'm familiar with in my area (10+ &amp; then organized play attendees) have members that will absolutely detest the PF2E rules buffet.&nbsp; There's way too many boxes with keyword tags and way too many moving parts in both character construction and combat play (i.e. having to memorize your actions and if they cost 1, 2 or 3 of your actions per turn).&nbsp;&nbsp; They hate math (even if it's subtracting -10 to determine if it's a crit vs regular success/fumble).&nbsp;&nbsp; In a sample group of 6, there's probably ~4 who shake their heads at all the mental gymnastics to learn the PF2E rules.&nbsp; They like the 5E era where character construction and leveling takes mere minutes outside of the game with little &quot;bad decision&quot; consequence.&nbsp;&nbsp; And they like how the players who have 100 hours away from the game between sessions don't have a big advantage in figuring out overly powerful combos in character building.PF2E is aimed at the folks who have countless hours to &quot;play with the rules&quot; on their own free time outside of a group gaming session.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's like there's all these puzzle pieces to figure out what Dedications to take and to come up with character builds that flex the rules system and then there's this newer mini game beyond PF1E where you try to figure out your actions in combat like puzzle pieces and then possibly even build a little cheat sheet flow chart on which actions to take depending on your target's defenses and the probability of a normal success vs critical success in order to fully optimize.To me, this harkens back to 4E where a lot of the revenue was from folks who wanted &quot;rules play&quot; and grabbed the books essentially as &quot;activity books&quot; to take home and play with the rules themselves.&nbsp;&nbsp; And if luck permitted, you'd have some group sessions to play those out if the group involved enough like minded folks.&nbsp; I could see how some 5E groups of six might luck into having 3 players aligned who do &quot;rules play&quot; outside of their regular sessions and then possibly meet or VTT as a trio with the PF2E rules.The short here is that Paizo potentially realizes they are becoming a niche player and have tried to assemble a core system that has as many moving parts as possible for entertaining the at-home rules play crowd for the next 3-5 years.&nbsp;&nbsp; There's probably 6-12 months of rules play in the Core rulebook alone, depending how many hours per week you apply yourself at trying to master it (assuming the average is ~5 hours a week).TLDR: If the RPG market has ~5% of its audience interested in at-home &quot;rules play&quot;, perhaps that's enough to sustain a niche offering that can sell 1-2 rule supplements a year at $40 a pop?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="wakedown, post: 7638676, member: 15901"] After skimming through the final rules, it looks like Paizo is going after the same kinds of player-minds that subsidized 4E sales. They aren't trying to build a comparable product to 1E-3E & 5E. These rules aren't likely to win over your average group. Most groups I'm familiar with in my area (10+ & then organized play attendees) have members that will absolutely detest the PF2E rules buffet. There's way too many boxes with keyword tags and way too many moving parts in both character construction and combat play (i.e. having to memorize your actions and if they cost 1, 2 or 3 of your actions per turn). They hate math (even if it's subtracting -10 to determine if it's a crit vs regular success/fumble). In a sample group of 6, there's probably ~4 who shake their heads at all the mental gymnastics to learn the PF2E rules. They like the 5E era where character construction and leveling takes mere minutes outside of the game with little "bad decision" consequence. And they like how the players who have 100 hours away from the game between sessions don't have a big advantage in figuring out overly powerful combos in character building. PF2E is aimed at the folks who have countless hours to "play with the rules" on their own free time outside of a group gaming session. It's like there's all these puzzle pieces to figure out what Dedications to take and to come up with character builds that flex the rules system and then there's this newer mini game beyond PF1E where you try to figure out your actions in combat like puzzle pieces and then possibly even build a little cheat sheet flow chart on which actions to take depending on your target's defenses and the probability of a normal success vs critical success in order to fully optimize. To me, this harkens back to 4E where a lot of the revenue was from folks who wanted "rules play" and grabbed the books essentially as "activity books" to take home and play with the rules themselves. And if luck permitted, you'd have some group sessions to play those out if the group involved enough like minded folks. I could see how some 5E groups of six might luck into having 3 players aligned who do "rules play" outside of their regular sessions and then possibly meet or VTT as a trio with the PF2E rules. The short here is that Paizo potentially realizes they are becoming a niche player and have tried to assemble a core system that has as many moving parts as possible for entertaining the at-home rules play crowd for the next 3-5 years. There's probably 6-12 months of rules play in the Core rulebook alone, depending how many hours per week you apply yourself at trying to master it (assuming the average is ~5 hours a week). TLDR: If the RPG market has ~5% of its audience interested in at-home "rules play", perhaps that's enough to sustain a niche offering that can sell 1-2 rule supplements a year at $40 a pop? [/QUOTE]

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