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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MockingBird" data-source="post: 7641627" data-attributes="member: 6985008"><p>Those key words never turned me off of 4e. The combats and how they were presented, the reliance on grid and minis, and just the way the game played is what turned me off. A casual friend you just talked into playing couldn't really sit down and just play, it was overwhelming with all the choices that could be made at character generation. They just wanted to hit things. I mistakenly thought Essentials toned it down and fell for that line only to find out it was much the same. I cant speak for others who disliked 4e but this is what turned me away. Saying that PF1e wasnt much better when I attempted to recruit new players who had never played. It wasnt until 5e and much persuasion that I was able to hook my friends into having a regular game.</p></blockquote><p></p>