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<blockquote data-quote="Wulf Ratbane" data-source="post: 4361338" data-attributes="member: 94">I'm all in favor of fixing Turn Undead, but I am not sold on this solution.It's trying to do too much. By combining &quot;the healing problem&quot; with &quot;the turning problem&quot; it's opening itself to other problems.I'd much rather see them tackle the two problems separately. With respect to Turn Undead (apart from the healing mechanic), this solution suffers from the same inherent problem as prior versions:Non-intelligent undead get more HD for their CR than intelligent undead, making them more resistant to turning than the free-willed undead. Maybe that's by design, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. I think that's an unintended consequence, myself.The Gray Render zombie in the SRD has 20HD... and it's CR6. Such creatures also typically have a Will save more than double their CR. The Gray Render has Will +12.Compared to the CR7 Spectre: 7 HD, 45 hp, Will +7, +2 turn resistance, CR7.I would prefer to see the turning mechanic unhooked from HD/hp directly, and perhaps make more account of intelligent/non-intelligent undead status. If Turn Undead is dramatically more effective against non-intelligent undead, this helps mitigate the HD/CR discrepancy.I would at least double the damage (or disallow saves for) non-intelligent undead.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wulf Ratbane, post: 4361338, member: 94"] I'm all in favor of fixing Turn Undead, but I am not sold on this solution. It's trying to do too much. By combining "the healing problem" with "the turning problem" it's opening itself to other problems. I'd much rather see them tackle the two problems separately. With respect to Turn Undead (apart from the healing mechanic), this solution suffers from the same inherent problem as prior versions: Non-intelligent undead get more HD for their CR than intelligent undead, making them [i]more[/i] resistant to turning than the free-willed undead. Maybe that's by design, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. I think that's an unintended consequence, myself. The Gray Render zombie in the SRD has 20HD... and it's CR6. Such creatures also typically have a Will save more than double their CR. The Gray Render has Will +12. Compared to the CR7 Spectre: 7 HD, 45 hp, Will +7, +2 turn resistance, CR7. I would prefer to see the turning mechanic unhooked from HD/hp directly, and perhaps make more account of intelligent/non-intelligent undead status. If Turn Undead is dramatically more effective against non-intelligent undead, this helps mitigate the HD/CR discrepancy. I would at least double the damage (or disallow saves for) non-intelligent undead. [/QUOTE]

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