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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jeff Wilder" data-source="post: 4609083" data-attributes="member: 5122">Honestly, you need to play it before you cement your opinion about this.(1) Trip in Pathfinder no longer requires a touch attack.  (Granted, the touch attack in 3.5 is usually pro forma, but still.)(2) Trip in Pathfinder no longer requires a STR vs. (STR or DEX) check.  It's all Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB).(3) The size modifier for Large creatures is only +1 to their CMB.  (Irrelevant for comparison to Trip in 3.5, but meaningful for stuff like Grapple, where in 3.5 it was +4.)(4) At least so far, trip in Pathfinder is in place of a melee attack, and the CMB bonus doesn't go down with iterative attacks.  So using your last attack for a maneuver like trip is often a good idea, since the last attack often won't hit anyway.So, a fire giant has BAB +11, STR +10, Size +1, for a CMB of +22.An enlarged fighter 10 has BAB +10, STR +7, Size +1, Feat +2, tripping weapon +2 for a CMB of +22.The DC is 37, so the fighter 10 has a 30 percent chance to trip a giant.  (On one attack.  On a hasted attack routine, the chance rises to about 65 percent, although this doesn't count the fighter being counter-tripped (25 percent), and it doesn't count duplication of tripping.)Is that chance too low?  A lot of people on the Paizo boards seem to think so, but I'm not so sure.  A 30 percent to 65 percent chance to take away the giant's full attack routine (or force it to attack at -4)?  To cause the giant to provoke AoOs at +4 to hit?Maneuver effects are very powerful mechanically in 3.5, and they remain very powerful in Pathfinder.  I want them to be relatively difficult to perform.That said, I do think the +2 feat modifiers should be +4, and I think it's likely Jason Buhlman will drop the base DC from 15 + CMB to something like 12 + CMB.  But if that happens, about a month after the finished game is released, be ready to listen to people complaining about how special maneuvers are broken.</blockquote>

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