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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4703456" data-attributes="member: 82732">I'm not sure I agree with on par though clearly they have the potential to have much more than I've suggested.  First many a pc has hit the deck without taking a second wind.  Additionally there's a the possibility the healer will be stunned, downed, killed, dazed etc.  Additionally some of the healing comes from dailies or daily use items so the party won't always have that in every encounter.There's also the possibility that a party will not have a leader.  Though I feel it's a terrible choice and unless your DM designs encounters specifically to your strengths you'll eventually get killed. I participated in a thread on another site where some people projected that an optimum build for a party would be something along the lines of all elves, 3 rangers, 2 wizards, high stealth, high perception, get lots of surprise, kill before things get in range, move 7 as a party so that retreating was easier to maintain separation etc. I argued pretty hard that any party without a leader was pretty fragile and much more likely to run into a tpk situation, I was semi flamed into just giving up on the thread.  It's definitely not as simple as I've suggested and I agree the pc's won't be dead at 125 HP's because they'll act to stop that from happening.  Monsters also have some healing in some cases though pc's far outshine the monsters in that regard.  The orcs in the OP for example have about 70hp's worth of healing as well.  My point here being how much is healing worth in comparison to damage, I admit the PC's have more hit points than I presented in the simple example but my point is still healing is MORE powerful than damage.   It's probably over simplified to say 200% value for pc hit points as to monster hit points but I think I can make a very strong case for somewhere in the middle.    But you're assuming you'll kill the monster twice as fast.  Why?  Clerics can apply healing without fail (no to hit roll) as a minor.  This also increases the value of healing, basically making it a "second attack" in a round for a character.  Healing is flexible as well.  It can be applied to the person with the most damage which makes getting pc's down much harder than getting monsters down.  If every pc had 200% of hit points but there was no healing at all would parties be as tough? I don't think so.sort of irrelevant.  area affects would still damage non minions as well.  If you're targeting an area with minions in it you're potentially not targeting another area that has more normal creatures so the overkill or blow-through is still valid.  minions also all effectively have the feat evasion.  if you miss and would have done half damage they're not hurt all.  more wasted damage.</blockquote>

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