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<blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4705050" data-attributes="member: 82732">really insightful stuff, I agree that wizards are extremely powerful in large encounters, usually outperforming the strikers in raw damage delivered though being hampered by the inability to deal it out in massive chunks to one creature.&nbsp; I also agree that tactics are critical for party success and minimizing the number of attackers via bottlenecking or any other means of controlling the number of attacks and actions the bad guys take is all tantamount to success in 4e.&nbsp; I strongly disagree about not needing a leader.&nbsp; First the ability to heal a character (and this character changes from encounter to encounter) that is in trouble gives a kind of flexible pool of hit points to the party that is not duplicable without a cleric/warlord/insert phb version here.&nbsp; Warlords are good and clerics are better in my experience.&nbsp; Radiant damage being a plus and access to more healing as well as easier access to bonus saving throws being the two primary reasons I like clerics better.&nbsp; They can also put out a fair amount of damage on their own with the right powers.&nbsp; Nothing offsets stun/daze/immobilize so well as sacred flame.&nbsp; Wolf pack tactics certainly has it's appeal but lance of faith and sacred flame as a combo of at-wills are better than any other class at wills with the exception of maybe wizard.&nbsp; temp hit points, bonus saves, or a power bonus to attack and all the while targeting reflex instead of fort or ac which on a lot of monsters are pretty high.Adventuring without a leader is asking to be killed.&nbsp; Anyone who has ever faced ghouls will attest to the massive benefits of clerics.&nbsp; 3 ghouls vs 4 pcs at level 2.&nbsp; 600 exp level 3 encounter which is n+1 so not particularly dangerous.&nbsp; Take a rogue, fighter, wizard and add any 4th pc and try and play this out.&nbsp; If that 4th pc is not a cleric the party dies more than half the time in most instances.&nbsp; Add a 4th ghoul (n+3 encounter) and even with the cleric it's about 50/50 TPK I'm guessing, probably a 95% TPK without a cleric.&nbsp; Really comes down to some dailies hitting and the wizard having sphere and NEVER becoming stunned.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AngryPurpleCyclops, post: 4705050, member: 82732"] really insightful stuff, I agree that wizards are extremely powerful in large encounters, usually outperforming the strikers in raw damage delivered though being hampered by the inability to deal it out in massive chunks to one creature. I also agree that tactics are critical for party success and minimizing the number of attackers via bottlenecking or any other means of controlling the number of attacks and actions the bad guys take is all tantamount to success in 4e. I strongly disagree about not needing a leader. First the ability to heal a character (and this character changes from encounter to encounter) that is in trouble gives a kind of flexible pool of hit points to the party that is not duplicable without a cleric/warlord/insert phb version here. Warlords are good and clerics are better in my experience. Radiant damage being a plus and access to more healing as well as easier access to bonus saving throws being the two primary reasons I like clerics better. They can also put out a fair amount of damage on their own with the right powers. Nothing offsets stun/daze/immobilize so well as sacred flame. Wolf pack tactics certainly has it's appeal but lance of faith and sacred flame as a combo of at-wills are better than any other class at wills with the exception of maybe wizard. temp hit points, bonus saves, or a power bonus to attack and all the while targeting reflex instead of fort or ac which on a lot of monsters are pretty high. Adventuring without a leader is asking to be killed. Anyone who has ever faced ghouls will attest to the massive benefits of clerics. 3 ghouls vs 4 pcs at level 2. 600 exp level 3 encounter which is n+1 so not particularly dangerous. Take a rogue, fighter, wizard and add any 4th pc and try and play this out. If that 4th pc is not a cleric the party dies more than half the time in most instances. Add a 4th ghoul (n+3 encounter) and even with the cleric it's about 50/50 TPK I'm guessing, probably a 95% TPK without a cleric. Really comes down to some dailies hitting and the wizard having sphere and NEVER becoming stunned. [/QUOTE]

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